M11 extension back on the agenda
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
There’s only one problem I can forsee with a “new A10”. There’s no doubt that such a road is very desperately needed, BTW, by locals and businesses alike.
If it was to branch off the A14/A11 just west of Newmarket, passing Burwell and Soham to the east (although could pass Soham to the west), until crossing to the west just north of Littleport, then almost mirroring the old road up all the way up to Downham Market and King’s Lynn.
The trouble is, the upper half of that would be crossing over fenland which is well known for being below sea level. So what options are there?? Make it an embankment-style causeway?? Build it elevated on viaducts??
Not easy problems to solve. I make it around 33 miles from Soham to King’s Lynn. Makes you wonder how they originally built the A47 from Thorney to Lynn.
Another consequence of the plan may be more conversion of the A11 to motorway, between Stump Cross and west of Newmarket. That’s practically how much new motorway I can see being built - just another 10 miles.
If it was to branch off the A14/A11 just west of Newmarket, passing Burwell and Soham to the east (although could pass Soham to the west), until crossing to the west just north of Littleport, then almost mirroring the old road up all the way up to Downham Market and King’s Lynn.
The trouble is, the upper half of that would be crossing over fenland which is well known for being below sea level. So what options are there?? Make it an embankment-style causeway?? Build it elevated on viaducts??
Not easy problems to solve. I make it around 33 miles from Soham to King’s Lynn. Makes you wonder how they originally built the A47 from Thorney to Lynn.
Another consequence of the plan may be more conversion of the A11 to motorway, between Stump Cross and west of Newmarket. That’s practically how much new motorway I can see being built - just another 10 miles.
- thatapanydude
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
I see an extension of the M11 or an expressway from Cambridge to Lincolnshire, as a no brainier.
We have a major housing crisis in Cambridge but suddenly if you could live in Kings Lynn, Wisbech, Boston, Sleaford, Spalding etc and be in circa 1 hour of Cambridge (much less for places like Wisbech, Downham Market, Swaffham) it can reduce the squeeze on housing in and around Cambridge.
Also a motorway/expressway standard route to Humber Bridge, would almost negate the need to do major work with the A1.
I would favour a route from the M11 giving an eastern bypass of Cambridge, following the A10 to Downham then onto Boston, where I would upgrade the A52 to Grantham onto the A1. The dualling of the A46 via Lincoln can link Humber Bridge to the network.
We have a major housing crisis in Cambridge but suddenly if you could live in Kings Lynn, Wisbech, Boston, Sleaford, Spalding etc and be in circa 1 hour of Cambridge (much less for places like Wisbech, Downham Market, Swaffham) it can reduce the squeeze on housing in and around Cambridge.
Also a motorway/expressway standard route to Humber Bridge, would almost negate the need to do major work with the A1.
I would favour a route from the M11 giving an eastern bypass of Cambridge, following the A10 to Downham then onto Boston, where I would upgrade the A52 to Grantham onto the A1. The dualling of the A46 via Lincoln can link Humber Bridge to the network.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Roads in the fens were originally built when the rivers were raised during the drainage of the fens - the farmland in the fens has dropped by several metres since then as the peat has dried out and suffered erosion.Berk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 19:19 There’s only one problem I can forsee with a “new A10”. There’s no doubt that such a road is very desperately needed, BTW, by locals and businesses alike.
If it was to branch off the A14/A11 just west of Newmarket, passing Burwell and Soham to the east (although could pass Soham to the west), until crossing to the west just north of Littleport, then almost mirroring the old road up all the way up to Downham Market and King’s Lynn.
The trouble is, the upper half of that would be crossing over fenland which is well known for being below sea level. So what options are there?? Make it an embankment-style causeway?? Build it elevated on viaducts??
Not easy problems to solve. I make it around 33 miles from Soham to King’s Lynn. Makes you wonder how they originally built the A47 from Thorney to Lynn.
Another consequence of the plan may be more conversion of the A11 to motorway, between Stump Cross and west of Newmarket. That’s practically how much new motorway I can see being built - just another 10 miles.
The ECML is built across the fens between Huntingdon and Peterborou just as the West Highland line is across Rannoch Moor so it's not insurmountable.
Lifelong motorhead
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
An M11 extension all the way to Humberside seems a bit pie in the sky but I think there could be a case for building a high quality dual carriageway between Cambridge and King’s Lynn. It would make sense for this route to leave the A14 just southeast of the Bar Hill junction as that would serve the Northstowe development and avoid the need to modify Girton any further. Interchanges with the A142 and A1122 would significantly reduce the journey times from Cambridge to Chatteris, Ely, Wisbech and Downham Market, unlocking potential for future development in these areas.
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
There is no need or expectation for the government to fund ports, they are commercial operations that make money. Felixstowe, London Gateway, Immingham and Teessport were not government projects they were funded built and operated by Limited companies.lefthandedspanner wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 17:58My (admittedly cynical) prediction is that the government will persistently refuse to fund development for ports due to chronic tight-fistedness, allow the problem to fester and shortages to get steadily worse for years to come, then when it becomes a real emergency they'll realise they can use it as a cue to seize absolute power and will do so immediately.dkgy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:12 Lets not forget that in the new post-Brexit world, we're going to have to get stuff in via a lot more ports. The stuff from outside the EU that currently comes into Rotterdam, taken off and shipped to the UK via Calais-Dover and the M20 might well need to come into container ports on the East Coast of England - and I'd imagine Immingham has capacity spare. Plus all the other cross-channel traffic will need to be spread a bit more widely around the UK's various RoRo ports if the added red-tape at Calais slows down key imports.
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
As others have pointed out there are really two parts to this: providing better links to Grimsby and the area, and facilitating a large about of growth and development in region.
The first is better achieved through upgrades to the A1 and A46, this might be the final push that gets that section of the A1 upgraded with blue signs and three lanes. It also adds to case to upgrade the A46, although at the northern end taking the route up the A15 looks like it might be the better option.
As an artery for growth it makes sense, liked to the Humber bridge at the north and on to the A19 with links to the A1. In the south: I've always considered that the benefits of the second Thames crossing are somewhat diluted by plugging it directly into M25. I would link it to the M25 but also take it up to the M11 to allow the M11/A14 to distribute the north/south traffic onto the A1, M1 and M6. With a new route north of Cambridge this could be linked to the second Thames crossing, potentially creating a continues route from the A2/M2 or M20 to Newcastle.
A new populated area would also need rail links: the lower end could be linked into the ECML via Peterborough and/or Cambridge. With both Peterborough and Cambridge being around 50mins from King's cross allowing towns on the southern end of the route to have commuter potential for London, solving one of the issues raised previously providing the ECML has the capacity for at least 4 more trains per hour south of the Cambridge branch junction.
The first is better achieved through upgrades to the A1 and A46, this might be the final push that gets that section of the A1 upgraded with blue signs and three lanes. It also adds to case to upgrade the A46, although at the northern end taking the route up the A15 looks like it might be the better option.
As an artery for growth it makes sense, liked to the Humber bridge at the north and on to the A19 with links to the A1. In the south: I've always considered that the benefits of the second Thames crossing are somewhat diluted by plugging it directly into M25. I would link it to the M25 but also take it up to the M11 to allow the M11/A14 to distribute the north/south traffic onto the A1, M1 and M6. With a new route north of Cambridge this could be linked to the second Thames crossing, potentially creating a continues route from the A2/M2 or M20 to Newcastle.
A new populated area would also need rail links: the lower end could be linked into the ECML via Peterborough and/or Cambridge. With both Peterborough and Cambridge being around 50mins from King's cross allowing towns on the southern end of the route to have commuter potential for London, solving one of the issues raised previously providing the ECML has the capacity for at least 4 more trains per hour south of the Cambridge branch junction.
- thatapanydude
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Unless the HS2 eastern section goes ahead I doubt you can squeeze any additional paths through Welwyn.TimM3-A55 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 23:52 With both Peterborough and Cambridge being around 50mins from King's cross allowing towns on the southern end of the route to have commuter potential for London, solving one of the issues raised previously providing the ECML has the capacity for at least 4 more trains per hour south of the Cambridge branch junction.
Extending the Fen line to Hunstanton and improving connectivity at Peterborough and Cambridge to Wisbech, Spalding, Sleaford and Boston maybe more cost effective as well as politically viable than the M11 extension in terms of improving growth in the region.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
There will certainly need to be improvements to the east-west connections in the area if there was significant development around a new HQDC extending to King's Lynn. Ideally drivers would like to also reach Birmingham and Norwich with ease and not just London, but a potential HQDC would also improve connections to places further up the east coast.Peter350 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 22:39 An M11 extension all the way to Humberside seems a bit pie in the sky but I think there could be a case for building a high quality dual carriageway between Cambridge and King’s Lynn. It would make sense for this route to leave the A14 just southeast of the Bar Hill junction as that would serve the Northstowe development and avoid the need to modify Girton any further. Interchanges with the A142 and A1122 would significantly reduce the journey times from Cambridge to Chatteris, Ely, Wisbech and Downham Market, unlocking potential for future development in these areas.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
I don’t think the level is so much of a problem as the ground conditions. IIRC, the newly built Ely bypass was reported to have required piling in places that was two thirds as deep as the tower of Ely cathedral is high, which is slightly mind-boggling.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 22:32Roads in the fens were originally built when the rivers were raised during the drainage of the fens - the farmland in the fens has dropped by several metres since then as the peat has dried out and suffered erosion.Berk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 19:19 There’s only one problem I can forsee with a “new A10”. There’s no doubt that such a road is very desperately needed, BTW, by locals and businesses alike.
If it was to branch off the A14/A11 just west of Newmarket, passing Burwell and Soham to the east (although could pass Soham to the west), until crossing to the west just north of Littleport, then almost mirroring the old road up all the way up to Downham Market and King’s Lynn.
The trouble is, the upper half of that would be crossing over fenland which is well known for being below sea level. So what options are there?? Make it an embankment-style causeway?? Build it elevated on viaducts??
Not easy problems to solve. I make it around 33 miles from Soham to King’s Lynn. Makes you wonder how they originally built the A47 from Thorney to Lynn.
Another consequence of the plan may be more conversion of the A11 to motorway, between Stump Cross and west of Newmarket. That’s practically how much new motorway I can see being built - just another 10 miles.
The ECML is built across the fens between Huntingdon and Peterborou just as the West Highland line is across Rannoch Moor so it's not insurmountable.
On the other hand:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/l ... e-13181093
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:57I don’t think the level is so much of a problem as the ground conditions. IIRC, the newly built Ely bypass was reported to have required piling in places that was two thirds as deep as the tower of Ely cathedral is high, which is slightly mind-boggling.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 22:32Roads in the fens were originally built when the rivers were raised during the drainage of the fens - the farmland in the fens has dropped by several metres since then as the peat has dried out and suffered erosion.Berk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 19:19 There’s only one problem I can forsee with a “new A10”. There’s no doubt that such a road is very desperately needed, BTW, by locals and businesses alike.
If it was to branch off the A14/A11 just west of Newmarket, passing Burwell and Soham to the east (although could pass Soham to the west), until crossing to the west just north of Littleport, then almost mirroring the old road up all the way up to Downham Market and King’s Lynn.
The trouble is, the upper half of that would be crossing over fenland which is well known for being below sea level. So what options are there?? Make it an embankment-style causeway?? Build it elevated on viaducts??
Not easy problems to solve. I make it around 33 miles from Soham to King’s Lynn. Makes you wonder how they originally built the A47 from Thorney to Lynn.
Another consequence of the plan may be more conversion of the A11 to motorway, between Stump Cross and west of Newmarket. That’s practically how much new motorway I can see being built - just another 10 miles.
The ECML is built across the fens between Huntingdon and Peterborou just as the West Highland line is across Rannoch Moor so it's not insurmountable.
On the other hand:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/l ... e-13181093
Maybe we should be thinking about a network of new canals and not motorways for that area.
A good reason to keep on good terms with the Dutch
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Perhaps we need the M11 to go OUT from Grimsby into the North Sea, rejoining by Cromer and on to Cambridge, similar in structure to the Afsluitdijk on the Zuider See - that would protect Eastern England from sea-level rises and provide land for development.alans wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:40roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:57I don’t think the level is so much of a problem as the ground conditions. IIRC, the newly built Ely bypass was reported to have required piling in places that was two thirds as deep as the tower of Ely cathedral is high, which is slightly mind-boggling.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 22:32
Roads in the fens were originally built when the rivers were raised during the drainage of the fens - the farmland in the fens has dropped by several metres since then as the peat has dried out and suffered erosion.
The ECML is built across the fens between Huntingdon and Peterborou just as the West Highland line is across Rannoch Moor so it's not insurmountable.
On the other hand:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/l ... e-13181093
Maybe we should be thinking about a network of new canals and not motorways for that area.
A good reason to keep on good terms with the Dutch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
Lifelong motorhead
- roadtester
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
That would be fun! I’ve done the Afsluitdijk a couple of times - with my parents in the seventies and then I drove it again in the 1990s when I was working in Germany.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:50Perhaps we need the M11 to go OUT from Grimsby into the North Sea, rejoining by Cromer and on to Cambridge, similar in structure to the Afsluitdijk on the Zuider See - that would protect Eastern England from sea-level rises and provide land for development.alans wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:40roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:57
I don’t think the level is so much of a problem as the ground conditions. IIRC, the newly built Ely bypass was reported to have required piling in places that was two thirds as deep as the tower of Ely cathedral is high, which is slightly mind-boggling.
On the other hand:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/l ... e-13181093
Maybe we should be thinking about a network of new canals and not motorways for that area.
A good reason to keep on good terms with the Dutch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
Spectacular stuff.
I’ve often wondered whether something similar could be done, perhaps not along the entire East coast but at least across the smaller area of the Wash, “cutting the corner” in transport terms. That said, current thinking seems to favour letting nature take its course where coastlines are concerned, rather than having massive man-made structures.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
I seem to remember some years ago there was talk of a Wash Barrage,Gibralter Point across to Hunstanton IIRC ,this could serve as a transport route and also a means of power generation or alternately a reservoir of fresh water.Lots of problems solved in one.Whats not to like !!
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Given that George Stephenson managed to build a railway across the 'impassable' Chat Moss in the 1830's and the US and Canadians built a road from the Calgary to Alaska on permafrost in less than 5 years I hardly think its impassable especially given there are already roads and railways there. Mining subsidence in the midlands and north is a much bigger problem for road builders.roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:57
I don’t think the level is so much of a problem as the ground conditions. IIRC, the newly built Ely bypass was reported to have required piling in places that was two thirds as deep as the tower of Ely cathedral is high, which is slightly mind-boggling.
On the other hand:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/l ... e-13181093
As for sea level the rate of rise sea rise in Southern England has been fairly steady at 1.7 mm per year since tide gauge records began in the 17th century. There is some evidence that it has risen to around 3 mm per year in parts of southern England but that effect is hard to separate from the combination of land subsidence particularly in East Anglia as a result of the draining of the fens and iso static rebound from the last ice age. Simplistically the weigh of ice in Northern Britain pushed down the land surface. It is still rising with the result that southern England is sinking with a pivot point in the northern midlands. None the less if we assume that 3 mm per annum is correct it would take over 300 years for sea levels to rise 1 metre.
Most of the scare stories centre around Norfolk Virginia which like Norfolk England largely consists of reclaimed marshland. The difference is that in East Anglia that land was drained before Europeans even settled on a large scale in Norfolk VA. In fact serious land reclamation and drainage only got under way there in the late 19th and 20th centuries so the land is still settling as happened in the fens with the results that a combination of land used and water abstraction has lowered the land level. NASA records show sea level rise as unchanged.
https://phys.org/news/2017-11-nasa-virg ... venly.html
https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2003/circ126 ... on45212960
The same thing happens in the South East of England where much of the water comes from boreholes.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
"letting nature take its course" is scientifically engineered - where low-lying coastal land is backed by higher land it's a no-brainer as the previous sea defences become flattened by each winter's storms and then absorb the wave/tidal energy thus protecting the higher land - in other areas, new sea defences are built higher inland and then breach the original sea defence encouraging salt-marsh to absorb the wave/tidal energy in the same way.roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:08That would be fun! I’ve done the Afsluitdijk a couple of times - with my parents in the seventies and then I drove it again in the 1990s when I was working in Germany.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:50Perhaps we need the M11 to go OUT from Grimsby into the North Sea, rejoining by Cromer and on to Cambridge, similar in structure to the Afsluitdijk on the Zuider See - that would protect Eastern England from sea-level rises and provide land for development.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
Spectacular stuff.
I’ve often wondered whether something similar could be done, perhaps not along the entire East coast but at least across the smaller area of the Wash, “cutting the corner” in transport terms. That said, current thinking seems to favour letting nature take its course where coastlines are concerned, rather than having massive man-made structures.
Lifelong motorhead
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Ask King John, he lost his entire baggage train including the crown jewels trying to cross the Wash.alans wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:42 I seem to remember some years ago there was talk of a Wash Barrage,Gibralter Point across to Hunstanton IIRC ,this could serve as a transport route and also a means of power generation or alternately a reservoir of fresh water.Lots of problems solved in one.Whats not to like !!
Given the size of the area, the tidal range and the length of any barrier and its likely you will expend more energy building it than would ever be recovered. An 11 mile concrete barrier involves burning an enormous amount of fossil fuel. Then there is the issue of the ecological damage.
http://www.marinet.org.uk/campaign-arti ... sh-barrage
If you want reliable dispatchable low carbon power in East Anglia build Sizewell C.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
I have read somewhere that the rebound from the ice age is uneven, in that western land areas are rising while eastern land areas are dropping - I've also read that a 10cm rise in sea levels from melting ice sheet will indundate East Anglia one more - that's only 30 years at 3mm/year!KeithW wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:52Given that George Stephenson managed to build a railway across the 'impassable' Chat Moss in the 1830's and the US and Canadians built a road from the Calgary to Alaska on permafrost in less than 5 years I hardly think its impassable especially given there are already roads and railways there. Mining subsidence in the midlands and north is a much bigger problem for road builders.roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:57
I don’t think the level is so much of a problem as the ground conditions. IIRC, the newly built Ely bypass was reported to have required piling in places that was two thirds as deep as the tower of Ely cathedral is high, which is slightly mind-boggling.
On the other hand:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/l ... e-13181093
As for sea level the rate of rise sea rise in Southern England has been fairly steady at 1.7 mm per year since tide gauge records began in the 17th century. There is some evidence that it has risen to around 3 mm per year in parts of southern England but that effect is hard to separate from the combination of land subsidence particularly in East Anglia as a result of the draining of the fens and iso static rebound from the last ice age. Simplistically the weigh of ice in Northern Britain pushed down the land surface. It is still rising with the result that southern England is sinking with a pivot point in the northern midlands. None the less if we assume that 3 mm per annum is correct it would take over 300 years for sea levels to rise 1 metre.
Most of the scare stories centre around Norfolk Virginia which like Norfolk England largely consists of reclaimed marshland. The difference is that in East Anglia that land was drained before Europeans even settled on a large scale in Norfolk VA. In fact serious land reclamation and drainage only got under way there in the late 19th and 20th centuries so the land is still settling as happened in the fens with the results that a combination of land used and water abstraction has lowered the land level. NASA records show sea level rise as unchanged.
https://phys.org/news/2017-11-nasa-virg ... venly.html
https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2003/circ126 ... on45212960
The same thing happens in the South East of England where much of the water comes from boreholes.
Lifelong motorhead
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
The best long term sea defence is marshland, the problems we have in low lying areas are where we have drained the marsh. Romney Marsh is a classic example where drainage has produced the situation in which the entire stretch of land behind the barriers from Greatstone to Hythe is now below sea level at peak tides so massive concrete walls have had to be built.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:04
"letting nature take its course" is scientifically engineered - where low-lying coastal land is backed by higher land it's a no-brainer as the previous sea defences become flattened by each winter's storms and then absorb the wave/tidal energy thus protecting the higher land - in other areas, new sea defences are built higher inland and then breach the original sea defence encouraging salt-marsh to absorb the wave/tidal energy in the same way.
When I lived there they had sirens to warn of a breach in the sea wall.
Just to the west the gravel on Dungeness absorbs wave energy very efficiently and no artificial sea defences are needed. It can however make for a lot of noise in a storm as the gravel washes up and down the beach.
The irony is the building of the 2 nuclear power stations has left this stretch of the Kent/East Sussex coast almost untouched and it now has the status of a Nature Reserve and a Site of Special Scientific Interest
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Dungeness is also officially a desert, apparently.KeithW wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:31 Just to the west the gravel on Dungeness absorbs wave energy very efficiently and no artificial sea defences are needed. It can however make for a lot of noise in a storm as the gravel washes up and down the beach.
The irony is the building of the 2 nuclear power stations has left this stretch of the Kent/East Sussex coast almost untouched and it now has the status of a Nature Reserve and a Site of Special Scientific Interest
Lifelong motorhead
Re: M11 extension back on the agenda
Whilst the A1 certainly needs massive improvement in certain locations, upgrading to D3M would involve demolition of most overbridges on some stretches, and going off line on sections close to towns (therefore leaving useless stretches of D2 used by local traffic only). None of that is very ecologically sound in my view. We looked at it in the 1980s after the government announced full length D3M motorway from London to Edinburgh.Mark Hewitt wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 09:29Of course it should. The whole of the A1(M) should be at least D3M standard like the new sections in North Yorkshire. Some offline bypasses might make sense where there's a difficulty in getting a D3M through; yet if they can manage to turn a D2 to D3M around Catterick and Wetherby then I think it's manageable.
As others have stated, a new motorway across very lightly populated terrain could open up enormous growth potential where land is plentiful, and relatively close to a number of ports. I'm not a particular fan of the pursuit of 'growth', but I know most are. The other point is our current dire shortage of capable north-south diversion routes when the M1 or A1 is closed for any length of time. This would offer a perfect alternative for long distance travellers.