After the A9 & A96

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green light
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After the A9 & A96

Post by green light »

After these major trunk road projects what do people realistically think will (or should) be the next major road upgrades in Scotland?

I appreciate these projects aren't due to be completed for another 6-8 years and a lot of things can happen in that time, but it would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts.

Personally, I think that the following are worthy:
  • Sections of the M8 should be upgraded to D3
  • The A1 should be D2 all the way to the border
  • A77 upgraded to D2 (M77) to Ayr
  • M74 D2 sections upgraded to D3
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by djw1981 »

Depending upon political matters, the A77 upgrade is, I think likely - Motorway to AYr and maybe a DC bypass then online s2+1 to Cairnryan, along with S2+1 sections on A75 and a few bypasses.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by B9127 »

Dundee Northern Bypass
Motorways travelled 2019 - M90 - M9 - M80 - M8 -M77 - M73 -A74(M) -M6-M42-M40 -A404(M) - M4 - M5 -M50 -M56 much better so far than last year
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by B9127 »

And for goodness sake finish the A1 to the border
Motorways travelled 2019 - M90 - M9 - M80 - M8 -M77 - M73 -A74(M) -M6-M42-M40 -A404(M) - M4 - M5 -M50 -M56 much better so far than last year
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by orudge »

B9127 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 04:03 Dundee Northern Bypass
This would be nice, along with safety improvements/gap closures/GSJs between Dundee and Stonehaven.

The A92 through Fife (bypassing and north of Glenrothes) could also do with some attention, although I’m not sure how likely that is.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Euan »

B9127 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 04:03 Dundee Northern Bypass
That would pretty much finish off the improved intercity road network in Scotland with every city being connected either by a motorway or a fast dual carriageway. Once the AWPR opens, Dundee will surely want to follow suit.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Euan »

B9127 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 04:04 And for goodness sake finish the A1 to the border
I suspect that once the A9 and A96 projects are finished roads in the south of Scotland may receive some more attention. It would just take bypasses for Springholm and Crocketford for the A75 to bypass every town and village along its corridor from Gretna to Stranraer. As for the A1, it would be good to see a dualling project for the section between Dunbar and the border. But also remember that there is still a long stretch of the A1 south of the border yet to be dualled. We might even end up in a similar situation to that of the Cumberland Gap at the north end of the M6 which was not upgraded for many years. It could work out the other way round though - depending on which transport agency decides to dual its part of the road first.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Duncan macknight »

I’ll be honest none of those projects spring to my mind. At the end of the M77 is a dual carriageway A77 which takes you to Ayr. I did it recently and didn’t really feel any issues or need that it needs to be upgraded. South of Ayr I have not driven so I can’t comment but I believe improvements are targeted.

A1 dualling hasn’t got a high demand at the moment as it carries much lower flows of traffic than further south. Same with the A75 although it’s a bit of an embarrassment when a national trunk road creeps though a village for 2 miles.

The M74 upgrade is maybe one to be considered as the 2 lane stretch does cause problems with the HGVs and general mix of slow and fast traffic. The M8 which I have driven on a Friday evening I don’t think needs widening as I maintained a steady 80 in the fast lane and only really slowed down for the Forth crossing.

Possibly widening of the A720 and capacity improvements round Glasgow would be my go to areas.

After A9 and A96 big infrastructure improvements are not really needed. The next big one I can think of is possible improvement of the A82.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by rileyrob »

The A82 Loch Lomond section is programmed by 2030/35 and is the only really horrific bit of the route, although adding in some overtaking opportunities (ie 2+1) along Loch Ness would be nice, or alternatively more upgrades to the B862 / B852 / B851 routes to create a desirable alternative option (this may come with more windfarms / hydro schemes being planned in the area).

In the Central Highlands, I think that bypasses on the A84 and A85 would be a huge benefit to those routes, and maybe finish improving the A86 (and A889) options too. Bear in mind that this is not just about improving journey times, but also removing heavy traffic from town centres and improving resilience when there are road closures, either for resurfacing etc or crashes.

However, one massively important issue that needs resolving asap is the Rest and be Thankful - I recently heard that they have spent £75 million in the last few years and over £100 million in the last 20 years. Surely that sort of capital outlay 20 years ago - when there was money to be spent, unlike now - could have secured a long term solution?
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by KeithW »

djw1981 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 02:17 Depending upon political matters, the A77 upgrade is, I think likely - Motorway to AYr and maybe a DC bypass then online s2+1 to Cairnryan, along with S2+1 sections on A75 and a few bypasses.
The A77 bypass of Maybole has been approved, work was supposed to start this year but as of 6 Nov 2018 they were still discussing the choice of contractor in the Scottish Parliament. The locals have been asking for a bypass for 70 years apparently.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2 ... ex+salmond

My understanding is that its going to be fairly basic 5.2 km long S2 bypass.
https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/a ... eaflet.pdf

I am not aware of any other planned A77 upgrade. Having driven from Ayr to Stranraer in July 2017 I can confirm that the bypass is definitely needed as are some junction improvements, there are some very scary flat junctions between Ayr and Maybole which are not addressed by the bypass. South of Maybole it is a classic unimproved S2 road.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Altnabreac »

B9127 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 04:03 Dundee Northern Bypass
Dundee Northern Bypass would be my number one project as well.

I'll go with ten schemes:
1 - Dundee Northern Bypass
2 - M74-M8 Fastlink (Dual carriageway with GSJs J12 M74 - J4 M8).
3 - A82 Inverlochy bypass and Caol Link road
4 - Full grade separation / gap closures of A90 from Dundee - Stonehaven
5 - A1 dualling from Houndwood to Burnmouth with GSJs at B6438 and A1107
6 - A75 Springholm and Crocketford bypasses
7 - A7 Selkirk Bypass
8 - Stromeferry - Stromemore bridge with new link road to Lochcarron (and trunking of the A890)
9 - A737 Kilwinning bypass
10 - A77 Ayr Bypass dualling and GSJs extending to meet north end of Maybole bypass and including a new Minishant bypass

I think that's a good geographic mix and a combination of new strategic interventions like Fastlink and relieving long standing bottlenecks like the A82.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Euan »

Altnabreac wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31
B9127 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 04:03 Dundee Northern Bypass
Dundee Northern Bypass would be my number one project as well.

I'll go with ten schemes:
1 - Dundee Northern Bypass
2 - M74-M8 Fastlink (Dual carriageway with GSJs J12 M74 - J4 M8).
3 - A82 Inverlochy bypass and Caol Link road
4 - Full grade separation / gap closures of A90 from Dundee - Stonehaven
5 - A1 dualling from Houndwood to Burnmouth with GSJs at B6438 and A1107
6 - A75 Springholm and Crocketford bypasses
7 - A7 Selkirk Bypass
8 - Stromeferry - Stromemore bridge with new link road to Lochcarron (and trunking of the A890)
9 - A737 Kilwinning bypass
10 - A77 Ayr Bypass dualling and GSJs extending to meet north end of Maybole bypass and including a new Minishant bypass

I think that's a good geographic mix and a combination of new strategic interventions like Fastlink and relieving long standing bottlenecks like the A82.
The M74-M8 fastlink sounds very similar to a proposal from a long time ago which would have seen a much faster connection to Edinburgh.

As for the A7 in Selkirk, there may be a bypass approved within a few years as there have been talks amongst officials about it and the local residents are also quite keen on the idea.

The A737 in Kilwinning would do really well with a bypass, especially with the Dalry bypass well under construction at the moment. They would collectively form a very viable alternative route from Glasgow to Ayrshire.

I have quite often travelled on the A82 through Fort William and have noticed that more recently the road has been quite congested around Inverlochy. I think this might be as a result of the new retail complex that has emerged next to the road.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by wrinkly »

Euan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 19:24 The M74-M8 fastlink sounds very similar to a proposal from a long time ago which would have seen a much faster connection to Edinburgh.
That was obviously intentional on Altnabreac's part. He used the same name and the same route description.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by cb a1 »

wrinkly wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 19:28
Euan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 19:24 The M74-M8 fastlink sounds very similar to a proposal from a long time ago which would have seen a much faster connection to Edinburgh.
That was obviously intentional on Altnabreac's part. He used the same name and the same route description.
I think it would have been in late 1997 or early 1998 that I wrote the Scheme Classification Report (requirement of SH1/97) for Fastlink. No idea why it never progressed beyond that as I got given another major project which pretty much took up all of my next three years.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by roadtester »

I only visit Scotland on average once or twice a year, so my sense of priorities probably isn’t very sound but the two I’d like to see are:

1) Some sort of high-quality cut-across from the M74/A74(M) corridor for traffic to/from Edinburgh. I’m not sure whether that needs to be in the route of the A702 - but something like that.

2) The A702 - this always feels a bit “almost but not quite”. How about getting it up to motorway standard, most obviously by grade-separating Sheriffhall?

A1 dualling seems like another obvious one from a skewed southern perspective but I’m not sure how much of a priority it should be given the lack of progress the other side of the border.

Also, I wonder if the SNP government is a bit reluctant to improve cross-border links in comparison with links within Scotland - there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm for extending the reopened Borders rail line to Carlisle, for example.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

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roadtester wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 21:16Also, I wonder if the SNP government is a bit reluctant to improve cross-border links in comparison with links within Scotland - there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm for extending the reopened Borders rail line to Carlisle, for example.
To be fair, the old Waverley line to Carlisle crossed some very challenging terrain with very few people to serve. South of Hawick, it diverged from the A7, taking a more easterly route, and missed most of the towns and villages on the way - and even the A7 corridor is pretty empty between Hawick and Langholm. Making an economic case for anything more than an extension to Hawick would be tricky, and there are problems even with that as a new road has taken over the old alignment between Tweedbank and Melrose, and there may have been some construction on the route in Newtown St Boswells. Obviously that's not a total showstopper, but it doesn't make it any easier. However, Hawick would definitely benefit from the improved transport links - it's a fine looking town, but a close check of the high street reveals that it's on its uppers to some extent. The SNP has been doing quite well here lately, but if it wants to retain loyalty then committing to spending a few poonds would do it no harm.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Euan »

roadtester wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 21:16 I only visit Scotland on average once or twice a year, so my sense of priorities probably isn’t very sound but the two I’d like to see are:

1) Some sort of high-quality cut-across from the M74/A74(M) corridor for traffic to/from Edinburgh. I’m not sure whether that needs to be in the route of the A702 - but something like that.

2) The A702 - this always feels a bit “almost but not quite”. How about getting it up to motorway standard, most obviously by grade-separating Sheriffhall?

A1 dualling seems like another obvious one from a skewed southern perspective but I’m not sure how much of a priority it should be given the lack of progress the other side of the border.

Also, I wonder if the SNP government is a bit reluctant to improve cross-border links in comparison with links within Scotland - there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm for extending the reopened Borders rail line to Carlisle, for example.
I sense that your top point is that Edinburgh isn't really as well connected to the southern motorway network as one would expect for a city of its size and level of economic and political significance - and I agree with you. Edinburgh does seem to have quite a distinct lack of motorways, despite the original intention of it being the focal point of Scotland's motorway network which instead ended up centring around Glasgow and Falkirk.

The two most obvious ways to improve southern road links to Edinburgh would be the A702 idea for NW England (or something along the lines of the Fastlink) and for NE England dualling the A1 through Northumberland and Berwickshire. If I were to choose one of these over the other it would have to be the M74-Edinburgh idea.

Personally I don't think that there is any reluctance from the government in improving cross-border links, it just seems to be the case that the highly extensive projects taking place on the A9 and the A96 are currently taking up most of the available time and effort and is preventing any significant progress elsewhere in the network. It might also be the case that other than the A1, there really isn't much else that can be done to improve cross-border road links as the border regions in both Scotland and England are quite sparsely populated with not that many roads in the first place.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by roadtester »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 21:56
roadtester wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 21:16Also, I wonder if the SNP government is a bit reluctant to improve cross-border links in comparison with links within Scotland - there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm for extending the reopened Borders rail line to Carlisle, for example.
To be fair, the old Waverley line to Carlisle crossed some very challenging terrain with very few people to serve. South of Hawick, it diverged from the A7, taking a more easterly route, and missed most of the towns and villages on the way - and even the A7 corridor is pretty empty between Hawick and Langholm. Making an economic case for anything more than an extension to Hawick would be tricky, and there are problems even with that as a new road has taken over the old alignment between Tweedbank and Melrose, and there may have been some construction on the route in Newtown St Boswells. Obviously that's not a total showstopper, but it doesn't make it any easier. However, Hawick would definitely benefit from the improved transport links - it's a fine looking town, but a close check of the high street reveals that it's on its uppers to some extent. The SNP has been doing quite well here lately, but if it wants to retain loyalty then committing to spending a few poonds would do it no harm.
I agree in terms of the terrain and the places along the route but it’s also to do with opening up a whole new cross-border link of wider significance that could serve a lot more traffic as well.

That said, I’m not sure the bit that’s already be done would be up to the job in terms of capacity etc. if it became part of a major through route.
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by roadtester »

Euan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 22:33
roadtester wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 21:16 I only visit Scotland on average once or twice a year, so my sense of priorities probably isn’t very sound but the two I’d like to see are:

1) Some sort of high-quality cut-across from the M74/A74(M) corridor for traffic to/from Edinburgh. I’m not sure whether that needs to be in the route of the A702 - but something like that.

2) The A702 - this always feels a bit “almost but not quite”. How about getting it up to motorway standard, most obviously by grade-separating Sheriffhall?

A1 dualling seems like another obvious one from a skewed southern perspective but I’m not sure how much of a priority it should be given the lack of progress the other side of the border.

Also, I wonder if the SNP government is a bit reluctant to improve cross-border links in comparison with links within Scotland - there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm for extending the reopened Borders rail line to Carlisle, for example.
I sense that your top point is that Edinburgh isn't really as well connected to the southern motorway network as one would expect for a city of its size and level of economic and political significance - and I agree with you. Edinburgh does seem to have quite a distinct lack of motorways, despite the original intention of it being the focal point of Scotland's motorway network which instead ended up centring around Glasgow and Falkirk.
I suspect it just reflects the sorts of Scottish journeys I personally do rather than genuine Scottish priorities!
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Re: After the A9 & A96

Post by Berk »

My view is that there seems to be a considerable bias towards schemes in zone 9, rather than zones 7 and 8 where much of the population live.

And it’s not just at government level - but here too on SABRE. Why is that?? Not an axe to grind, but I am more than a little mystified.
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