M20 Maidstone Bypass History

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Sunil_of_Yoxley
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 01:19
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 20:34
jackal wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 13:23 You can see the whole A20(M) in 1960 on Google Earth, courtesy of Kent CC.
Don't forget the other A20(M) between Kidbrooke and Swanley (presumably), whose western end wasn't actually built (flowing directly onto the East Cross Route).
The eastern end of the A20(M) is a bit of an unknown, but it's not likely to have ever been planned beyond the start of the Sidcup Bypass. That's for the simple reason that it was a GLC scheme, and the GLC only had responsibility for the A20 within the old LCC boundary, which lies a little way west of the western end of the Sidcup Bypass. The Sidcup Bypass itself and everything east of there was a trunk road and the Ministry of Transport would have had their own improvement plans.
Chris,

Thanks for that! Look forward to seeing the A20(M) article as part of the excellent Ringways history on Roads.org.uk later this year. :D

But I'm just curious to know the list of planned A20(M) junctions between Kidbrooke and Sidcup, if you don't mind.

So we have (from the Ringway 2, ECR and SCR pages, as well as the SABRE Wiki):

Kidbrooke - fully free-flow ECR, SCR and A2(M) (direct flow A20(M) onto ECR towards Blackwall etc.)
Eltham Green - north-facing slips only to A205 and A210 (replaces Yorkshire Grey roundabout)
Dutch House - fully free-flow Ringway 2 (South)
Junction of unknown layout with the current A20 near Mottingham (local access like M11/A12 @ Leyton?)

Any others east of Mottingham?
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Truvelo »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 20:32 But I'm just curious to know the list of planned A20(M) junctions between Kidbrooke and Sidcup, if you don't mind.

So we have (from the Ringway 2, ECR and SCR pages, as well as the SABRE Wiki):

Kidbrooke - fully free-flow ECR, SCR and A2(M) (direct flow A20(M) onto ECR towards Blackwall etc.)
Eltham Green - north-facing slips only to A205 and A210 (replaces Yorkshire Grey roundabout)
Dutch House - fully free-flow Ringway 2 (South)
Junction of unknown layout with the current A20 near Mottingham (local access like M11/A12 @ Leyton?)

Any others east of Mottingham?
From my visits to archives I have found no junction layouts between Dutch House and the existing GSJ's on the Sidcup Bypass. As far as Dutch House is concerned I have found this layout which omits Ringway 2 to the south. Chris may have found something that I don't have as I gave up looking for Ringway stuff around four years ago.
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Truvelo wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 21:10
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 20:32 But I'm just curious to know the list of planned A20(M) junctions between Kidbrooke and Sidcup, if you don't mind.

So we have (from the Ringway 2, ECR and SCR pages, as well as the SABRE Wiki):

Kidbrooke - fully free-flow ECR, SCR and A2(M) (direct flow A20(M) onto ECR towards Blackwall etc.)
Eltham Green - north-facing slips only to A205 and A210 (replaces Yorkshire Grey roundabout)
Dutch House - fully free-flow Ringway 2 (South)
Junction of unknown layout with the current A20 near Mottingham (local access like M11/A12 @ Leyton?)

Any others east of Mottingham?
From my visits to archives I have found no junction layouts between Dutch House and the existing GSJ's on the Sidcup Bypass. As far as Dutch House is concerned I have found this layout which omits Ringway 2 to the south. Chris may have found something that I don't have as I gave up looking for Ringway stuff around four years ago.
Truvelo, I believe you sketched out the Eltham Green layout on the Wiki, many thanks.

Looks like the Dutch House you found is a little less complex than the one on Chris's Ringway pages to put it mildly!
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Truvelo »

Yes, I drew the Eltham Green junction. Here's the original drawing if you're interested. The Dutch House junction I showed is from the mid 1960's. Either it would have been more simplified in those days or the Ringway 2 proposals to the south weren't finalised. Such a layout would be more suitable for today's road pattern and I've suggested this in another thread where both the A20 and A2 should freeflow towards the Blackwall Tunnel as simple fork junctions.
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Truvelo wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 22:10 Yes, I drew the Eltham Green junction. Here's the original drawing if you're interested. The Dutch House junction I showed is from the mid 1960's. Either it would have been more simplified in those days or the Ringway 2 proposals to the south weren't finalised. Such a layout would be more suitable for today's road pattern and I've suggested this in another thread where both the A20 and A2 should freeflow towards the Blackwall Tunnel as simple fork junctions.
Thanks for the original drawing.
Looking on Google, there is a wide central reservation on the A20, right next to the Dutch House. I wonder if that was part of the plan.
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Truvelo »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 22:44 Looking on Google, there is a wide central reservation on the A20, right next to the Dutch House. I wonder if that was part of the plan.
All I can think of is maybe the layout in the plan I've shown is the first stage in the larger scale proposals shown on Chris's site. Although Chris's map doesn't show a link between the improved A20 from Sidcup towards the existing A20 north of the Dutch House pub I assume such a link would be provided. The maps which show a link to the existing A20 have a roundabout interchange rather than the full freeflow junction on Chris's site. Anyway, it's getting late now and I've been up 18 hours so my brain isn't working like it should. Anyway, I'm as intrigued as you are about the full A20(M) plans from Dutch House to Maidstone and I'm hopeful Chris has all the answers, and 1/2500 scale plans :)
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by jackal »

Gav wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 20:00
jackal wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 13:23 You can see the whole A20(M) in 1960 on Google Earth, courtesy of Kent CC.
how may i ask
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Truvelo wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 23:00
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 22:44 Looking on Google, there is a wide central reservation on the A20, right next to the Dutch House. I wonder if that was part of the plan.
All I can think of is maybe the layout in the plan I've shown is the first stage in the larger scale proposals shown on Chris's site. Although Chris's map doesn't show a link between the improved A20 from Sidcup towards the existing A20 north of the Dutch House pub I assume such a link would be provided. The maps which show a link to the existing A20 have a roundabout interchange rather than the full freeflow junction on Chris's site. Anyway, it's getting late now and I've been up 18 hours so my brain isn't working like it should. Anyway, I'm as intrigued as you are about the full A20(M) plans from Dutch House to Maidstone and I'm hopeful Chris has all the answers, and 1/2500 scale plans :)
Thanks for yet another interesting image!
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Chris5156 »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 20:32But I'm just curious to know the list of planned A20(M) junctions between Kidbrooke and Sidcup, if you don't mind.
So am I! Hopefully one day I’ll find it :laugh:
So we have (from the Ringway 2, ECR and SCR pages, as well as the SABRE Wiki):

Kidbrooke - fully free-flow ECR, SCR and A2(M) (direct flow A20(M) onto ECR towards Blackwall etc.)
Eltham Green - north-facing slips only to A205 and A210 (replaces Yorkshire Grey roundabout)
Dutch House - fully free-flow Ringway 2 (South)
Junction of unknown layout with the current A20 near Mottingham (local access like M11/A12 @ Leyton?)
Eltham Green is an unknown - I’ve seen very few references to it, and those I have seen vary. I’m sure that at one time I saw a drawing for a full access junction with folded slips on the north side of the A205 but I haven’t been able to find it since.

Mottingham was probably a roundabout interchange above the motorway, but how it would have interacted with the A20 I don’t know because I’ve only ever found very vague written descriptions of it.

I’ve no idea about junctions east of Mottingham because I’ve never found anything that refers to them - if any were planned at all!
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 07:36
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 20:32But I'm just curious to know the list of planned A20(M) junctions between Kidbrooke and Sidcup, if you don't mind.
So am I! Hopefully one day I’ll find it :laugh:
So we have (from the Ringway 2, ECR and SCR pages, as well as the SABRE Wiki):

Kidbrooke - fully free-flow ECR, SCR and A2(M) (direct flow A20(M) onto ECR towards Blackwall etc.)
Eltham Green - north-facing slips only to A205 and A210 (replaces Yorkshire Grey roundabout)
Dutch House - fully free-flow Ringway 2 (South)
Junction of unknown layout with the current A20 near Mottingham (local access like M11/A12 @ Leyton?)
Eltham Green is an unknown - I’ve seen very few references to it, and those I have seen vary. I’m sure that at one time I saw a drawing for a full access junction with folded slips on the north side of the A205 but I haven’t been able to find it since.

Mottingham was probably a roundabout interchange above the motorway, but how it would have interacted with the A20 I don’t know because I’ve only ever found very vague written descriptions of it.

I’ve no idea about junctions east of Mottingham because I’ve never found anything that refers to them - if any were planned at all!
Chris, just wondering if you ever looked at this:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /C11268656

Greater London Council: visual description of the A20 (M) east of Mottingham
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This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

Reference: HLG 159/2508
Description: Greater London Council: visual description of the A20 (M) east of Mottingham
Date: 1972 Jan 01 - 1972 Dec 31
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Chris5156 »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:03Chris, just wondering if you ever looked at this:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /C11268656

Greater London Council: visual description of the A20 (M) east of Mottingham
Ordering and viewing options
This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

Reference: HLG 159/2508
Description: Greater London Council: visual description of the A20 (M) east of Mottingham
Date: 1972 Jan 01 - 1972 Dec 31
I have! I think I took it out and photographed it in about 2006. It has a written description of whether the road would be visible or audible from several nearby locations and a diagram illustrating the cross-section of the road next to the A20. It refers only to the length between Dutch House interchange and Green Lane, but doesn’t say anything much about either, unfortunately. It’s not very helpful and it’s just about the only thing specifically about the A20(M) that TNA holds :roll: I’m hopeful that London Metropolitan Archives will have more on the A20(M), since the GLC archives are there and it was a GLC scheme, but several years of searching there has so far failed to turn up very much at all.

You can read my notes on that file (and the other 43 files in HLG 159 I’ve read, and all the other items I’ve seen while doing archive research!) at my ArchiveWiki website here.

This item elsewhere in HLG 159 includes a plan of part of the A20(M)’s route, in very basic sketch form, and the location of some local junctions, but no detail. It’s about the best that has yet turned up for this road.
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Chris5156 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 13:33
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:03Chris, just wondering if you ever looked at this:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /C11268656

Greater London Council: visual description of the A20 (M) east of Mottingham
Ordering and viewing options
This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

Reference: HLG 159/2508
Description: Greater London Council: visual description of the A20 (M) east of Mottingham
Date: 1972 Jan 01 - 1972 Dec 31
I have! I think I took it out and photographed it in about 2006. It has a written description of whether the road would be visible or audible from several nearby locations and a diagram illustrating the cross-section of the road next to the A20. It refers only to the length between Dutch House interchange and Green Lane, but doesn’t say anything much about either, unfortunately. It’s not very helpful and it’s just about the only thing specifically about the A20(M) that TNA holds :roll: I’m hopeful that London Metropolitan Archives will have more on the A20(M), since the GLC archives are there and it was a GLC scheme, but several years of searching there has so far failed to turn up very much at all.

You can read my notes on that file (and the other 43 files in HLG 159 I’ve read, and all the other items I’ve seen while doing archive research!) at my ArchiveWiki website here.

This item elsewhere in HLG 159 includes a plan of part of the A20(M)’s route, in very basic sketch form, and the location of some local junctions, but no detail. It’s about the best that has yet turned up for this road.
Thanks for the links, Chris. Very vague, I grant you, but at the same time interesting, nonetheless! Just intrigued by the notion of a continuous "motorway" from Dover through Swanley, Kidbrooke and Blackwall to Hackney Wick. And then there's another notion of a continuous "motorway" from Woodford through Leytonstone to Hackney Wick... :mway:
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Re: M20 Maidstone Bypass History

Post by Brenley Corner »

It’s not quite the same as having motorway status, but it does make you realise that the A20/M20 route is grade-separated all the way from Mottingham right through to the outskirts of Dover - which is far more than the parallel A2 can achieve losing grade separation at Brenley Corner and again at the horrendous Lydden traffic lights.

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