Remembering the old A2

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Glenn A
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Remembering the old A2

Post by Glenn A »

I can remember being on a coach trip to France and having to use the A2 in 1980 through Canterbury and the massive congestion, and this photo will bring back memories for anyone who used the old A2 before it was made largely D2.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by roadtester »

This one - M20 near Maidstone in the 1970s is quite interesting too:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... nt-england
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by KeithW »

That was the problem with both the channel routes. they would (and in the case of the A2 still do) alternate between HQDC/motorway and unimproved S2.
I travelled a lot to Kent between 1979 and 1984 and neither route was really very good.

The A2/M2 was a high quality road pretty much as far as Brenley Corner where you could pick up the Thanet Way to Margate and Ramsgate or the the A2 to Canterbury where as you say it all went horribly wrong with the one saving grace being the Jubilee Way which got you into Dover avoiding the town itself

The A20/M20 was great from Swanley to J8 east of Maidstone and then suddenly dropped to the mostly S2 A20 to Ashford where you rejoined the M20. Your travels were for from over however as at the end of the M20 the Capel Bypass had not been built so you ended up on what is now the B2011 having to negotiate the rather steep Dover Hill and then go through Capel Le Ferne and into Dover town centre to get to the docks.

A lot of continental coach tours actually put you on a train to Folkestone Harbour Station where you boarded a ferry to Boulogne where the coach was waiting.

In 1971 I did just that taking a train from Middlesbrough to Folkestone and onto Boulogne. The holiday cost included the train ticket from London to Folkestone.
The route was as I recall :
Boulogne - Frankfurt
Frankfurt - Obergarten (hotels in ski resorts are cheap in summer)
Obergarten - Innsbruck - Cortina d'Ampezzo (cheap ski resort again)
Cortina d'Ampezzo - Lido de Jesolo

The return was a much more direct dash via the Mont Blanc tunnel with an overnight stay south of Paris and then finishing at Boulogne.

The trains from Middlesbrough to Kings Cross and back were the cheaper overnight service but at the age of 19 that was no great hardship and I didnt have a lot of cash.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Glenn A »

roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 14:04 This one - M20 near Maidstone in the 1970s is quite interesting too:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... nt-england
Look how quiet this is, even for a D2M serving a busy channel port.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Glenn A »

KeithW wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 15:36 That was the problem with both the channel routes. they would (and in the case of the A2 still do) alternate between HQDC/motorway and unimproved S2.
I travelled a lot to Kent between 1979 and 1984 and neither route was really very good.

The A2/M2 was a high quality road pretty much as far as Brenley Corner where you could pick up the Thanet Way to Margate and Ramsgate or the the A2 to Canterbury where as you say it all went horribly wrong with the one saving grace being the Jubilee Way which got you into Dover avoiding the town itself

The A20/M20 was great from Swanley to J8 east of Maidstone and then suddenly dropped to the mostly S2 A20 to Ashford where you rejoined the M20. Your travels were for from over however as at the end of the M20 the Capel Bypass had not been built so you ended up on what is now the B2011 having to negotiate the rather steep Dover Hill and then go through Capel Le Ferne and into Dover town centre to get to the docks.

A lot of continental coach tours actually put you on a train to Folkestone Harbour Station where you boarded a ferry to Boulogne where the coach was waiting.

In 1971 I did just that taking a train from Middlesbrough to Folkestone and onto Boulogne. The holiday cost included the train ticket from London to Folkestone.
The route was as I recall :
Boulogne - Frankfurt
Frankfurt - Obergarten (hotels in ski resorts are cheap in summer)
Obergarten - Innsbruck - Cortina d'Ampezzo (cheap ski resort again)
Cortina d'Ampezzo - Lido de Jesolo

The return was a much more direct dash via the Mont Blanc tunnel with an overnight stay south of Paris and then finishing at Boulogne.

The trains from Middlesbrough to Kings Cross and back were the cheaper overnight service but at the age of 19 that was no great hardship and I didnt have a lot of cash.
Until the late seventies, the A2/M2 route was a route of two halves, decent D2 and D2M from the edge of London to Upper Hambledown, then an absolute slog from Canterbury to Dover on a mostly S2 route that dragged all the way through both towns and a few villages en route. I do recall going through Canterbury with the school on the way to France in 1980( a year before the by pass opened) and it taking half an hour to cross the town as the traffic was so heavy.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by KeithW »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 16:29
roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 14:04 This one - M20 near Maidstone in the 1970s is quite interesting too:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... nt-england
Look how quiet this is, even for a D2M serving a busy channel port.
That is because all the traffic was queuing through Capel Le Ferne between Dover and Folkestone and between Ashford and J8 of the M20, neither were exactly fun to drive. The other bottlenecks were at the Dartford Crossing (just 1 tunnel), the old North Circular through Ilford and the old A13 past the Ford works at Dagenham. Alternatively you could try your luck with the Blackwall tunnel and run out of road in Stratford.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Glenn A »

KeithW wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 17:00
Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 16:29
roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 14:04 This one - M20 near Maidstone in the 1970s is quite interesting too:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... nt-england
Look how quiet this is, even for a D2M serving a busy channel port.
That is because all the traffic was queuing through Capel Le Ferne between Dover and Folkestone and between Ashford and J8 of the M20, neither were exactly fun to drive. The other bottlenecks were at the Dartford Crossing (just 1 tunnel), the old North Circular through Ilford and the old A13 past the Ford works at Dagenham. Alternatively you could try your luck with the Blackwall tunnel and run out of road in Stratford.
Leading up to the Blackwall Tunnel, Blackheath to be precise, was the Rochester Way, S2 west of Bexleyheath and a complete slog through Eltham and Kidbrooke. Then to get into central London to get out of the city to the north was S2 A13 through the east end of London. The school could have chosen to use the A2 to the city centre, but the driver reckoned this was just as much a drag than the A13.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by trickstat »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 13:30 I can remember being on a coach trip to France and having to use the A2 in 1980 through Canterbury and the massive congestion, and this photo will bring back memories for anyone who used the old A2 before it was made largely D2.
http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... own-canter
I think that year was the only time I've ever been through or to Canterbury in my life so far. It was the Easter holidays and I was on a coach going to Dover to collect German exchange students from Dover. Our German teacher was ill and my Dad was asked if he could take his place as the person who met them, presumably because we lived very near the school and one of the students was staying with us. A sixth former and myself (a first year), also came and it was rather strange travelling all the way from Stevenage in an almost empty coach. I remember the A2 took us fairly close to Canterbury cathedral.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 17:38 Leading up to the Blackwall Tunnel, Blackheath to be precise, was the Rochester Way, S2 west of Bexleyheath and a complete slog through Eltham and Kidbrooke. Then to get into central London to get out of the city to the north was S2 A13 through the east end of London. The school could have chosen to use the A2 to the city centre, but the driver reckoned this was just as much a drag than the A13.
I was on holiday near Margate in 1982, and I decided to go to London from there on the National Express for a day out. The A2 was dual carriageway up to around this point:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.45618 ... 8192?hl=en

The coach driver left the A2 at the junction with the North Circular Road and followed Westhorne Avenue then the A20 through Lewisham, briefly rejoining the A2 before following the A202 through Camberwell and Kennington to get to Victoria Coach Station.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by KeithW »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 17:38
Leading up to the Blackwall Tunnel, Blackheath to be precise, was the Rochester Way, S2 west of Bexleyheath and a complete slog through Eltham and Kidbrooke. Then to get into central London to get out of the city to the north was S2 A13 through the east end of London. The school could have chosen to use the A2 to the city centre, but the driver reckoned this was just as much a drag than the A13.
The best route was all down to the time of day. If I timed it to arrive at the Blackwall tunnel after 7 PM the A13 route was a doddle, If I was leaving earlier I would use the Dartford Tunnel then take the B roads through South and North Ockenden up to the A127. Take the A127 to Gallows Corner and then the A12 to the North Circular Road and pick up the M11. Not a route to take a coach down but perfect for my Fiat 132.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/greenwich ... -new-road2

Photo of the end of the East Rochester Way being plugged into the relief road here.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Glenn A »

trickstat wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 18:40
Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 13:30 I can remember being on a coach trip to France and having to use the A2 in 1980 through Canterbury and the massive congestion, and this photo will bring back memories for anyone who used the old A2 before it was made largely D2.
http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... own-canter
I think that year was the only time I've ever been through or to Canterbury in my life so far. It was the Easter holidays and I was on a coach going to Dover to collect German exchange students from Dover. Our German teacher was ill and my Dad was asked if he could take his place as the person who met them, presumably because we lived very near the school and one of the students was staying with us. A sixth former and myself (a first year), also came and it was rather strange travelling all the way from Stevenage in an almost empty coach. I remember the A2 took us fairly close to Canterbury cathedral.
Yes I can remember seeing it and going past Kent University, where one of the school teachers had attended. Also remember the hill that went into Canterbury, which is used on the English leg of the Tour De France.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by JosephA22 »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 13:30 I can remember being on a coach trip to France and having to use the A2 in 1980 through Canterbury and the massive congestion, and this photo will bring back memories for anyone who used the old A2 before it was made largely D2.
http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... own-canter
Interesting to see that piece of road was not only bypassed by the A2, but also by the A2050 so it's not even the main route into Canterbury now.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Gareth Thomas »

KeithW wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 15:36 That was the problem with both the channel routes. they would (and in the case of the A2 still do) alternate between HQDC/motorway and unimproved S2.
I travelled a lot to Kent between 1979 and 1984 and neither route was really very good.

The A2/M2 was a high quality road pretty much as far as Brenley Corner where you could pick up the Thanet Way to Margate and Ramsgate or the the A2 to Canterbury where as you say it all went horribly wrong with the one saving grace being the Jubilee Way which got you into Dover avoiding the town itself

The A20/M20 was great from Swanley to J8 east of Maidstone and then suddenly dropped to the mostly S2 A20 to Ashford where you rejoined the M20. Your travels were for from over however as at the end of the M20 the Capel Bypass had not been built so you ended up on what is now the B2011 having to negotiate the rather steep Dover Hill and then go through Capel Le Ferne and into Dover town centre to get to the docks.
I still find it astonishing that it was only 25 years ago that Dover, the country's busiest port and a super-primary destination, finally got dual carriageway connections. I remember us having to use the now-B2011 to get to Dover (my then-dentist was based there) and the traffic would be awful.

My grandparents now live in Capel-le-Ferne and find it hard to believe that this was once THE main road to Dover.
Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 16:35Until the late seventies, the A2/M2 route was a route of two halves, decent D2 and D2M from the edge of London to Upper Hambledown, then an absolute slog from Canterbury to Dover on a mostly S2 route that dragged all the way through both towns and a few villages en route. I do recall going through Canterbury with the school on the way to France in 1980( a year before the by pass opened) and it taking half an hour to cross the town as the traffic was so heavy.
Whilst most of the route has been improved since then, there are still a few single carriageway sections of A2 near Dover that can get very busy when Operation Stack or roadworks closes the M20. The local MP has been campaigning to get the A2 fully dualled. Sadly despite the Canterbury bypass it can still take half an hour to get from one side to the other, a north-south bypass would be nice too!

And Canterbury is a city, Kent's only one. :-P
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Simon_GNR »

I remember from holidays in Kent in 1970 and 1972 the A2 going right into Canterbury and then round the ring road (I see from the map it's called Rheims Way) and on to Dover. I think it was in 1970 that there were extensive roadworks where parts of the A2 south of Canterbury were being dualled, with the new carriageway being built alongside the existing one, in some places on the east and in others on the west of the old carriageway.

My parents had photos from an earlier family holiday in Kent from the mid 60's - when they and my older bothers left me, a few months old, with my aunt - and in the pictures you can see what the Westgate Gardens in Canterbury were like before they had Rheims Way ploughing straight through them on a bridge. In those days them the A2 must have gone right thorough the ancient city centre along the Roman alignment of Watling Street. That must have been fun! Good news for the railways and their ferries though if the road access to the Channel ports was so bad!
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by KeithW »

Simon_GNR wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 17:31 I remember from holidays in Kent in 1970 and 1972 the A2 going right into Canterbury and then round the ring road (I see from the map it's called Rheims Way) and on to Dover. I think it was in 1970 that there were extensive roadworks where parts of the A2 south of Canterbury were being dualled, with the new carriageway being built alongside the existing one, in some places on the east and in others on the west of the old carriageway.

My parents had photos from an earlier family holiday in Kent from the mid 60's - when they and my older bothers left me, a few months old, with my aunt - and in the pictures you can see what the Westgate Gardens in Canterbury were like before they had Rheims Way ploughing straight through them on a bridge. In those days them the A2 must have gone right thorough the ancient city centre along the Roman alignment of Watling Street. That must have been fun! Good news for the railways and their ferries though if the road access to the Channel ports was so bad!
In the mid 60's there far fewer cars on the road and fewer and smaller car ferries. In 1973 I drove through Canterbury on my way to the Dover Hoverport to take the Seaspeed Service and by then Rheims Way was open and I dont recall traffic being that bad. Dover was pretty much dead as far as rail ferries went, the Golden Arrow made its last run in 1972 leaving only the Night Ferry which made its last run in 1979. Folkestone still had its Harbour Station of course until the channel tunnel killed it off.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 16:18 And Canterbury is a city, Kent's only one. :-P
Thanks to a cockup when Rochester was being incorporated into the new Medway UA, yes. I do trust that the person responsible for that basic error was shot, weren't they?
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:08
Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 16:18 And Canterbury is a city, Kent's only one. :-P
Thanks to a cockup when Rochester was being incorporated into the new Medway UA, yes. I do trust that the person responsible for that basic error was shot, weren't they?
The entire English system of settlement hierarchies needs revising as it is an archaic, nonsensical and highly politicised mess.

The status of City is especially confusing
There are twenty settlements in England and Wales that were recognised as cities by "ancient prescriptive right"; basically they have called themselves cities since at least 1198 (time immemorial) so its considered a done deal.

The Crown has the right to bestow "official" city status but not to to define what the the word city means in normal usage, London contains two cities (the City of London and the City of Westminster) but is not itself a city despite being one of the largest settlements in Europe, having 2 cathedrals, several royal palaces and being the nations capital !

Traditionally a town became a city by virtue of having a cathedral but NOT if that cathedral is a Roman Catholic one such as St Marys in Middlesbrough

When local authority reorganisations happen City status is lost unless the letters patent are reissued. So York and Hereford's status was confirmed twice, in 1974 and again in the 1990s. Somebody forgot to do this for Rochester, St David's and Armagh but the latter two got to remain cities under the time immemorial rule. Then there were the 'new' cities created at the millenium and the Queens Gold and Diamond jubilees where a lot of heavy duty politicking went on.

A settlement moves from village to town by virtue of being granted a Charter and if that charter includes the right to hold a Market then it becomes a Market Town.

So we have the strange situation in which some ancient villages have larger populations and longer histories than some of the cities.

Examples:

St Davids - Wales - Population 1,814 - City
Founded as a monastic shrine to St David sometime in the 7th century - essential a Cathedral with an attached village for the lay employees.

Gamlingay - South Cambs - Population 5,000 - Village
A substantial settlement listed in the Domesday Book. The last archaeological dig aimed at investigating Anglo Saxon remains found beneath them evidence of continuous settlement through to the Iron Age and Bronze Age
It has a very large fine medieval church and Alms Houses that are still in use for social housing as Sir John Jacobs Alms Houses. At its peak it had 22 pubs and Ale houses. It still has a post office, 3 pubs, a licensed social club, several shops, 2 schools and a library/well equipped recreation centre with adjacent modern health centre. It acts as the central hub for many of the surrounding smaller settlements. It never achieved town status as until the late 20th century it was owned by Merton College Oxford , and Downing and Clare Colleges Cambridge and was effectively their fiefdom.

Ecclesfield - South Yorkshire - Population 32,000 - Village.
Another ancient settlement listed in Domesday Book as "Eclesfeld" believed to derive from the Celtic egles meaning a place by a Romano-British church. That structure no longer exists having been replaced by first a Saxon and then a Norman medieval church. It was also the location of a major pre-reformation Priory. In short it has a record of a substantial continuous occupation since at least 400 AD and was likely originally a Vicus, or Roman civilian settlement adjacent to a Roman Army military encampment keeping an eye on the Brigantes after the Boudiccan revolt in the first century. Now a suburb of Sheffield.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 16:18
I still find it astonishing that it was only 25 years ago that Dover, the country's busiest port and a super-primary destination, finally got dual carriageway connections. I remember us having to use the now-B2011 to get to Dover (my then-dentist was based there) and the traffic would be awful.
You say that, but it was only in the last 25 years or so that Calais improved as well. When I first went there in 1984 the only motorway was the A26 which started at St Omer a similar distance from Calais as the M2 was from Dover. No A16. It was a slog to get on it and the N1 along the coast was no fun either. It was the tunnel that ensured major infrastructure improvements occurred on both sides of the Channel
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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A303Chris wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:15
Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 16:18
I still find it astonishing that it was only 25 years ago that Dover, the country's busiest port and a super-primary destination, finally got dual carriageway connections. I remember us having to use the now-B2011 to get to Dover (my then-dentist was based there) and the traffic would be awful.
You say that, but it was only in the last 25 years or so that Calais improved as well. When I first went there in 1984 the only motorway was the A26 which started at St Omer a similar distance from Calais as the M2 was from Dover. No A16. It was a slog to get on it and the N1 along the coast was no fun either. It was the tunnel that ensured major infrastructure improvements occurred on both sides of the Channel
It was only in 1998 that the A16 itself extended beyond Boulogne as well. Connections to Calais were very poor; the historic priority was Paris-Lille-Dunkirk. The A25/N225 is 1970s.
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