Remembering the old A2

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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:32The A25/N225 is 1970s.
And it shows, there have been a lot of repair works on it in the last few years. A few years ago we used Dover-Dunkirk, it being quite a saving over using Dover-Calais, only to find that A25 was closed, so we had to cross country to pick up A26 anyway to head south.

We used Dover-Dunkirk again last December, but that time our destination was the Netherlands so it made more sense in lots of ways. But A16 around Dunkirk town is rubbish too.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 14:04 This one - M20 near Maidstone in the 1970s is quite interesting too:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... nt-england
Can anyone identify exactly where this was taken, please?
Or this one http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... ord-maidst :)

Funny, I have a whole load of photos I took in that area that look very similar to that... but it was the construction of the CTRL (aka HS1)
Last edited by Bertiebus on Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Bertiebus wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:31
roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 14:04 This one - M20 near Maidstone in the 1970s is quite interesting too:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... nt-england
Can anyone identify exactly where this was taken, please?
There's also this one of the M20 under construction between Ashford and Maidstone:

http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... ord-maidst
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Beat you to it :wink:
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:38 Traditionally a town became a city by virtue of having a cathedral but NOT if that cathedral is a Roman Catholic one such as St Marys in Middlesbrough
In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Bertiebus wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:36 Beat you to it :wink:
The caption on the web site is wrong as it says
RS 7318. Archival 1970s, M20 under construction between Ashford & Maidstone, Kent, England
Copyright: Rick Strange
Worldtravelphotographs size: 18.4 Mpixels (52.6 MB uncompressed) - 4724x3890 pixels (15.7x12.9 in / 40.0x32.9 cm at 300 ppi)
Work on the Ashford to Maidstone stretch didnt start until 1989
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:40
KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:38 Traditionally a town became a city by virtue of having a cathedral but NOT if that cathedral is a Roman Catholic one such as St Marys in Middlesbrough
In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
In the newly created cities, have the decided to upgrade the largest church to a Cathedral?
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Bertiebus wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:36 Beat you to it :wink:
Oops - sorry!
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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RichardA626 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:53
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:40
KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:38 Traditionally a town became a city by virtue of having a cathedral but NOT if that cathedral is a Roman Catholic one such as St Marys in Middlesbrough
In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
In the newly created cities, have the decided to upgrade the largest church to a Cathedral?
No, it is not necessary to have a cathedral but in the middle ages it was one of the main criteria. Liverpool was made a city before either Cathedral had been built. Essentially granting a place city status was in the gift of the monarch. Theoretically it still is but modern monarchs are expected to 'take advice'.

Being large and prosperous is not enough. In 1907 the criteria presented to the monarch as advice were :

A minimum population of 300,000.
A "local metropolitan character"—this implied that the town had a distinct identity of its own and was the centre of a wider area.
A good record of local government.

One way to satisfy Clause 2 was to have an Anglican Cathedral, the more impressive the better.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 23:56
RichardA626 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:53
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:40

In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
In the newly created cities, have the decided to upgrade the largest church to a Cathedral?
No, it is not necessary to have a cathedral but in the middle ages it was one of the main criteria. Liverpool was made a city before either Cathedral had been built. Essentially granting a place city status was in the gift of the monarch. Theoretically it still is but modern monarchs are expected to 'take advice'.

Being large and prosperous is not enough. In 1907 the criteria presented to the monarch as advice were :

A minimum population of 300,000.
A "local metropolitan character"—this implied that the town had a distinct identity of its own and was the centre of a wider area.
A good record of local government.

One way to satisfy Clause 2 was to have an Anglican Cathedral, the more impressive the better.
St Paul's church in Burton on Trent is a particularly grand affair. Apparently, the local big-wigs thought that having a big church that could plausibly be reclassified as a cathedral would help them get city status. But it was not to be - so far anyway!
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Wolverhampton has a cathedral, but it's in Lichfield.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Blackburn of course has a cathedral but has never been a city.

Although the council try and get the status every time. It almost looks desperate.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Big L wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 08:19 Wolverhampton has a cathedral, but it's in Lichfield.
In that sense, Cambridge has one but it's in Ely.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Herned »

Bertiebus wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:31 Can anyone identify exactly where this was taken, please?
Or this one http://www.worldtravelphotographs.com/- ... ord-maidst :)
I just had a look at the M20 on streetview, and all the contender overbridges east of Maidstone have 3 sets of pillars instead of solid abutments like in the photo, so I'm not sure the caption can be correct
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 23:56
RichardA626 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:53
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:40

In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
In the newly created cities, have the decided to upgrade the largest church to a Cathedral?
No, it is not necessary to have a cathedral but in the middle ages it was one of the main criteria. Liverpool was made a city before either Cathedral had been built. Essentially granting a place city status was in the gift of the monarch. Theoretically it still is but modern monarchs are expected to 'take advice'.

Being large and prosperous is not enough. In 1907 the criteria presented to the monarch as advice were :

A minimum population of 300,000.
A "local metropolitan character"—this implied that the town had a distinct identity of its own and was the centre of a wider area.
A good record of local government.

One way to satisfy Clause 2 was to have an Anglican Cathedral, the more impressive the better.
Decisions on locations of Anglican cathedrals and the structure of dioceses are, surprise surprise, made by the Church of England, not by the Crown. They have often recognised the need for new structures in the wake of the growth of new cities, so (for example) Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester acquired titular dioceses carved out of larger, older ones, and their head churches became cathedrals, or a new cathedral was built. Whether this followed the elevation of the town to a city is not consistent - Manchester got its cathedral *before* becoming an city, Liverpool at about the same time, and Birmingham *afterwards*.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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RichardA626 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:53
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:40
KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:38 Traditionally a town became a city by virtue of having a cathedral but NOT if that cathedral is a Roman Catholic one such as St Marys in Middlesbrough
In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
In the newly created cities, have the decided to upgrade the largest church to a Cathedral?
In some cases the Anglican diocese has a cathedral outside the city boundary - eg Southwell and Nottingham diocese has Southwell Minster 15 miles away from Nottingham.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 09:58
RichardA626 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:53
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 17:40

In total there are 14 English and Welsh cities that have never had Anglican cathedrals within their borders – Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Hull, Lancaster, Leeds, Nottingham, Plymouth, Preston, Salford, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swansea, and Wolverhampton.
In the newly created cities, have the decided to upgrade the largest church to a Cathedral?
In some cases the Anglican diocese has a cathedral outside the city boundary - eg Southwell and Nottingham diocese has Southwell Minster 15 miles away from Nottingham.
It's only recently that "and Nottingham" has been added to the name of the Diocese, and I think the same may be true of St Edmundsbury "and Ipswich". Bath and Wells has been so-called since the 13th century. Southwell has never been a city, neither has Bury St Edmunds (nor Ipswich, come to that). Both Bath and Wells are cities, the latter being the smallest city in England. Neither part of Sodor and Man is a city, nor even a town - Man is (obviously) the Isle of Man, Sodor historically referred to the Hebrides, and has Norse origins. The Hebrides are no longer part of the diocese, but the name remains.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Big L wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 08:19 Wolverhampton has a cathedral, but it's in Lichfield.
The reason St. Peter's was never raised to a Cathedral is probably something to do with the status as a Royal Peculiar, and hence was entirely separate from the standard church hierarchy.

On the subject of city status, it's interesting that for some places it is the local government district that holds that status, whilst in others it is the place itself. For example: The borough of Birmingham shall hold the status of a city vs The town of Wolverhampton shall hold the status of a city.

It's extra confusing around here, because local government districts can name themselves whatever they like, so the district covering most of Wolverhampton is actually called "the City of Wolverhampton" (rather than "Wolverhampton" or "Borough of Wolverhampton" or similar), which is different to the actual entity holding the city status. It's almost as confusing as administrative counties and Counties for the Purposes of Lieutenancy...
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 09:47
Decisions on locations of Anglican cathedrals and the structure of dioceses are, surprise surprise, made by the Church of England, not by the Crown. They have often recognised the need for new structures in the wake of the growth of new cities, so (for example) Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester acquired titular dioceses carved out of larger, older ones, and their head churches became cathedrals, or a new cathedral was built. Whether this followed the elevation of the town to a city is not consistent - Manchester got its cathedral *before* becoming an city, Liverpool at about the same time, and Birmingham *afterwards*.
While I agree that not having a cathedral is no longer an obstacle I do find it necessary to point out that the Supreme Governor of the Church of England is the reigning monarch and there is no constitutional separation between Church and State. This is rather academic now but it was not so in the past as late as the 19th century.

Manchester is the case of a town almost becoming a city due to its Cathedral as the origins of that cathedral lie in the foundation of Protestant Collegiate Chapel in 1510. The once small Market Town was growing fast on the back of the wool trade and textile industry and became a solidly Protestant region in an area that had traditionally been a centre of radical Catholic dissent. All looked good for Manchester having its Collegiate church being the centre of a new diocese at Manchester then along came the English civil war.

Manchester supported the Parliamentary side and especially the Puritans so after the restoration the newly restored King Charles II (head of the Church of England) ensured it was punished by losing its Members of Parliament and blocked any possibility of creating a new diocese and hence elevation of the Collegiate Church to Cathedral. The actual building was very heavily damaged and its restoration took almost 50 years. The textile industry declined and Manchester returned to being a reasonably prosperous market town until the rise of the cotton industry. It was its new found economic status that allowed the proper refurbishment of what would become the Cathedral and its financial and political influence that indirectly led to both city status and the creation of a new diocese. A major step was the purchase of the Manorial rights so the City of Manchester effectively assumed the powers of Lord of the Manor.

Prince Albert and through him Victoria became convinced of the need for the recognition of rise in importance of Manchester and he was also a great supporter of free trade so the backing of the Monarch (and Supreme Head of the Church of England) for the new diocese, city status and the elevation of the Collegiate Church to Cathedral was assured. In return on his death the City of Manchester built its Albert Memorial in the newly created Albert square. The government of the day was also happy to support this recognition as a way of assuaging the rising radicalism of the workers and landowners in a town that was bereft of political influence as it still had no MP's - see Peterloo Massacre. When Victoria and Albert visited Manchester and Salford in 1851 the total number of those who turned out to see the royal visitors is estimated to have been over 800,000.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:56
Big L wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 08:19 Wolverhampton has a cathedral, but it's in Lichfield.
The reason St. Peter's was never raised to a Cathedral is probably something to do with the status as a Royal Peculiar, and hence was entirely separate from the standard church hierarchy.
Wolverhampton *does* have a bishop, however, as an Area Bishop assisting the Bishop of Lichfield. When there was just one assistant, it was as the Suffragan Bishop of Wolverhampton, though additional assistants for Stafford and Shrewsbury have been added, and the title changed to "Area Bishop" in this diocese. For St Peter's to be raised to cathedral status, a diocese would need to be created centred on Wolverhampton. I have not heard of any proposals to make this happen. It is a very grand church, however.
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