Remembering the old A2

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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:32
It was only in 1998 that the A16 itself extended beyond Boulogne as well. Connections to Calais were very poor; the historic priority was Paris-Lille-Dunkirk. The A25/N225 is 1970s.
Cheers Bryn, Never knew that the A25/N225 was so old, makes sense of the major reconstruction works on it over the last few years.

But with the A16 you can easily tell the free earlier bit before Boulogne with the toll section south was constructed in a different time period
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:07
Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:56
Big L wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 08:19 Wolverhampton has a cathedral, but it's in Lichfield.
The reason St. Peter's was never raised to a Cathedral is probably something to do with the status as a Royal Peculiar, and hence was entirely separate from the standard church hierarchy.
Wolverhampton *does* have a bishop, however, as an Area Bishop assisting the Bishop of Lichfield. When there was just one assistant, it was as the Suffragan Bishop of Wolverhampton, though additional assistants for Stafford and Shrewsbury have been added, and the title changed to "Area Bishop" in this diocese. For St Peter's to be raised to cathedral status, a diocese would need to be created centred on Wolverhampton. I have not heard of any proposals to make this happen. It is a very grand church, however.
Somewhere between brain and keyboard I lost the additional "until the Victorian period" when referring to the Royal Peculiar which would have made the posr make more sense! There's been no proposals since the Royal Peculiar was abolished as far as I know.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Interestingly, Penrith has a bishop, but there's no way this could be classed as a city.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Glenn A wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:37 Interestingly, Penrith has a bishop, but there's no way this could be classed as a city.
The Bishopric of Penrith may be named after the town but he does not and never seems to have lived there. The title was originally held by the Diocese of Ripon in North Yorkshire and as I recall the current title holder is based in Carlisle. He is a suffragan bishop with a roaming commission in the sparsely populated area of Cumberland. Penrith has never been more than a market town but has always been of strategic importance at the intersection of two of the major routes between England and Scotland via the A6 and A66 which is why there is a castle there. In Roman times the fort of Voreda guarded the road from Manchester to Carlisle. Some things never change.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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KeithW wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:27
Glenn A wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:37 Interestingly, Penrith has a bishop, but there's no way this could be classed as a city.
The Bishopric of Penrith may be named after the town but he does not and never seems to have lived there. The title was originally held by the Diocese of Ripon in North Yorkshire and as I recall the current title holder is based in Carlisle. He is a suffragan bishop with a roaming commission in the sparsely populated area of Cumberland. Penrith has never been more than a market town but has always been of strategic importance at the intersection of two of the major routes between England and Scotland via the A6 and A66 which is why there is a castle there. In Roman times the fort of Voreda guarded the road from Manchester to Carlisle. Some things never change.
Penrith was very significant in the pre-M6 era, as many HGV drivers travelling from London and the southeast to Scotland would use the A1 and A66 to avoid the infamous Shap Fell on the A6, which was very hazardous in the winter months. Penrith was notorious for severe congestion at Arnisons Narrows in the town centre (only a few hundred yards from the point where the A6 and A66 used to meet), hence the Penrith bypass would become the first section of the M6 to be opened north of Carnforth.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Robert Kilcoyne wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:05
KeithW wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:27
Glenn A wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:37 Interestingly, Penrith has a bishop, but there's no way this could be classed as a city.
The Bishopric of Penrith may be named after the town but he does not and never seems to have lived there. The title was originally held by the Diocese of Ripon in North Yorkshire and as I recall the current title holder is based in Carlisle. He is a suffragan bishop with a roaming commission in the sparsely populated area of Cumberland. Penrith has never been more than a market town but has always been of strategic importance at the intersection of two of the major routes between England and Scotland via the A6 and A66 which is why there is a castle there. In Roman times the fort of Voreda guarded the road from Manchester to Carlisle. Some things never change.
Penrith was very significant in the pre-M6 era, as many HGV drivers travelling from London and the southeast to Scotland would use the A1 and A66 to avoid the infamous Shap Fell on the A6, which was very hazardous in the winter months. Penrith was notorious for severe congestion at Arnisons Narrows in the town centre (only a few hundred yards from the point where the A6 and A66 used to meet), hence the Penrith bypass would become the first section of the M6 to be opened north of Carnforth.
It was a simultaneous project. The A66 southern by pass opened the same time as the M6 western by pass in 1968, and removed the two major traffic problems in Penrith. However, Shap Fell remained a major obstacle until it was by passed in 1971 and the A66 remained mostly S2 between Penrith and Scotch Corner until the early 80s.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Glenn A wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 17:24
It was a simultaneous project. The A66 southern by pass opened the same time as the M6 western by pass in 1968, and removed the two major traffic problems in Penrith. However, Shap Fell remained a major obstacle until it was by passed in 1971 and the A66 remained mostly S2 between Penrith and Scotch Corner until the early 80s.
Remembering what the old A66 over Bowes Moor was like before it was dualled and having ridden over Shap on a motorbike I wonder much better an option the A1/A66 was in bad weather. I know if I had to drive from Middlesbrough to Galloway or Glasgow in winter weather I used the A68 to Corbridge and the A69 to Carlisle.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:23
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:07
Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:56
The reason St. Peter's was never raised to a Cathedral is probably something to do with the status as a Royal Peculiar, and hence was entirely separate from the standard church hierarchy.
Wolverhampton *does* have a bishop, however, as an Area Bishop assisting the Bishop of Lichfield. When there was just one assistant, it was as the Suffragan Bishop of Wolverhampton, though additional assistants for Stafford and Shrewsbury have been added, and the title changed to "Area Bishop" in this diocese. For St Peter's to be raised to cathedral status, a diocese would need to be created centred on Wolverhampton. I have not heard of any proposals to make this happen. It is a very grand church, however.
Somewhere between brain and keyboard I lost the additional "until the Victorian period" when referring to the Royal Peculiar which would have made the posr make more sense! There's been no proposals since the Royal Peculiar was abolished as far as I know.
Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.

Lancaster, for example, has a 19th-century Catholic cathedral, but the town did not gain city status until 1937. Arundel's Catholic church did not gain cathedral status until 1965, and as far as I'm aware Arundel still does not have city status.

---

Re. the A2, there is quite a good description of it in one of the James Bond novels. It's either Moonraker (set in Kent), Goldfinger, or On Her Majesty's Secret Service (in which Bond drives to Switzerland).
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39
Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:23
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:07 Wolverhampton *does* have a bishop, however, as an Area Bishop assisting the Bishop of Lichfield. When there was just one assistant, it was as the Suffragan Bishop of Wolverhampton, though additional assistants for Stafford and Shrewsbury have been added, and the title changed to "Area Bishop" in this diocese. For St Peter's to be raised to cathedral status, a diocese would need to be created centred on Wolverhampton. I have not heard of any proposals to make this happen. It is a very grand church, however.
Somewhere between brain and keyboard I lost the additional "until the Victorian period" when referring to the Royal Peculiar which would have made the posr make more sense! There's been no proposals since the Royal Peculiar was abolished as far as I know.
Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.

Lancaster, for example, has a 19th-century Catholic cathedral, but the town did not gain city status until 1937. Arundel's Catholic church did not gain cathedral status until 1965, and as far as I'm aware Arundel still does not have city status.

---

Re. the A2, there is quite a good description of it in one of the James Bond novels. It's either Moonraker (set in Kent), Goldfinger, or On Her Majesty's Secret Service (in which Bond drives to Switzerland).
St Peter's Collegiate Church, Wolverhampton, is Church of England, and I think quite high church with a full choral tradition. It could be elevated to Cathedral status if there was a case for it.

RC cathedrals have never bestowed City status, at least not since the English split from Rome. Middlesbrough has one as well and remains a town.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39
Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:23
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:07
Wolverhampton *does* have a bishop, however, as an Area Bishop assisting the Bishop of Lichfield. When there was just one assistant, it was as the Suffragan Bishop of Wolverhampton, though additional assistants for Stafford and Shrewsbury have been added, and the title changed to "Area Bishop" in this diocese. For St Peter's to be raised to cathedral status, a diocese would need to be created centred on Wolverhampton. I have not heard of any proposals to make this happen. It is a very grand church, however.
Somewhere between brain and keyboard I lost the additional "until the Victorian period" when referring to the Royal Peculiar which would have made the posr make more sense! There's been no proposals since the Royal Peculiar was abolished as far as I know.
Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.

Lancaster, for example, has a 19th-century Catholic cathedral, but the town did not gain city status until 1937. Arundel's Catholic church did not gain cathedral status until 1965, and as far as I'm aware Arundel still does not have city status.

---

Re. the A2, there is quite a good description of it in one of the James Bond novels. It's either Moonraker (set in Kent), Goldfinger, or On Her Majesty's Secret Service (in which Bond drives to Switzerland).
'Bond drives down the A2 to Switzerland in tonight's film, only on Anglia.'
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Simon_GNR wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 17:31 I remember from holidays in Kent in 1970 and 1972 the A2 going right into Canterbury and then round the ring road (I see from the map it's called Rheims Way) and on to Dover. I think it was in 1970 that there were extensive roadworks where parts of the A2 south of Canterbury were being dualled, with the new carriageway being built alongside the existing one, in some places on the east and in others on the west of the old carriageway.

My parents had photos from an earlier family holiday in Kent from the mid 60's - when they and my older bothers left me, a few months old, with my aunt - and in the pictures you can see what the Westgate Gardens in Canterbury were like before they had Rheims Way ploughing straight through them on a bridge. In those days them the A2 must have gone right thorough the ancient city centre along the Roman alignment of Watling Street. That must have been fun! Good news for the railways and their ferries though if the road access to the Channel ports was so bad!
It went through Harbledown; along London Road and St Dunstan's Street; through the Westgate Tower; along St Peter's Street, High Street, Parade and St George's Street (all now pedestrianised) before heading along the now-A2050 New Dover Road towards Bridge. Some evidence of the old route still exists in the city centre.

One day I shall drive as much of the old A2 between Dover and Faversham. Bits of the old A2 now form the A260 and ex-B2065 as both carriageways of the new road were built directly alongside the existing one.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39
Steven wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:23
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 13:07
Wolverhampton *does* have a bishop, however, as an Area Bishop assisting the Bishop of Lichfield. When there was just one assistant, it was as the Suffragan Bishop of Wolverhampton, though additional assistants for Stafford and Shrewsbury have been added, and the title changed to "Area Bishop" in this diocese. For St Peter's to be raised to cathedral status, a diocese would need to be created centred on Wolverhampton. I have not heard of any proposals to make this happen. It is a very grand church, however.
Somewhere between brain and keyboard I lost the additional "until the Victorian period" when referring to the Royal Peculiar which would have made the posr make more sense! There's been no proposals since the Royal Peculiar was abolished as far as I know.
Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.

Lancaster, for example, has a 19th-century Catholic cathedral, but the town did not gain city status until 1937. Arundel's Catholic church did not gain cathedral status until 1965, and as far as I'm aware Arundel still does not have city status.

---

Re. the A2, there is quite a good description of it in one of the James Bond novels. It's either Moonraker (set in Kent), Goldfinger, or On Her Majesty's Secret Service (in which Bond drives to Switzerland).
The novel you're thinking about is Moonraker, the A2 is very well described in the book. Those that have not read the novel may not realise that the book and the film are a very different beast.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39 Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant Anglican cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.
FTFY (as I believe the kids say).

Also, as someone else has almost pointed out, most of our Cathedrals were Roman Catholic - at least if they were built before 1531.

Back on roads - as a former resident of Huntingdon, then Canterbury and now Maidstone, I'm always a little bit sorry for the two Kentish places only having half a ring road each.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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ScottB5411 wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 02:59
Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39 Re. the A2, there is quite a good description of it in one of the James Bond novels. It's either Moonraker (set in Kent), Goldfinger, or On Her Majesty's Secret Service (in which Bond drives to Switzerland).
The novel you're thinking about is Moonraker, the A2 is very well described in the book. Those that have not read the novel may not realise that the book and the film are a very different beast.
The villain of Moonraker (the film and the book) was named (partly) after
Admiral The Honourable Sir
Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax KCB, DSO, JP, DL, whose house performs the task of providing several landmarks on the A31.

Another Fleming connection with East Kent: the former house of Count Louis Zabrowski -inventor of the real Chitty Chitty Bang Bang - is visible from the A2, especially if driving North, about 4 miles before Canterbury.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Moore_O wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:43
The villain of Moonraker (the film and the book) was named (partly) after
Admiral The Honourable Sir
Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax KCB, DSO, JP, DL, whose house performs the task of providing several landmarks on the A31.

Another Fleming connection with East Kent: the former house of Count Louis Zabrowski -inventor of the real Chitty Chitty Bang Bang - is visible from the A2, especially if driving North, about 4 miles before Canterbury.
Fleming had a habit of appropriating names for his characters.

Goldfinger was clearly pinched from Erno Goldfinger - the Hungarian architect who Fleming had clashed with when Goldfinger planned to demolish cottages in Hampstead that were removed to make way for Goldfinger's house.

Rosa Klebb was a pun based on the Russian for womens rights (khleb i rozy )
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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KeithW wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 13:22 Fleming had a habit of appropriating names for his characters.

Goldfinger was clearly pinched from Erno Goldfinger - the Hungarian architect who Fleming had clashed with when Goldfinger planned to demolish cottages in Hampstead that were removed to make way for Goldfinger's house.

Rosa Klebb was a pun based on the Russian for womens rights (khleb i rozy )
He also nicked cricket commentator Henry Blofeld's father's name for another villain - they had been at Eton together.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Moore_O wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:31
Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39 Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant Anglican cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.
FTFY (as I believe the kids say).

Also, as someone else has almost pointed out, most of our Cathedrals were Roman Catholic - at least if they were built before 1531.
The last time I checked with the pope, Anglicans were Protestants! I wasn't aware that this had changed. :wink:

The point I was making is that our older cathedral cities have Anglican Protestant cathedrals, because those cathedrals have traditionally and automatically conferred city status upon them (irrespective of the fact that they were originally built as Catholic cathedrals).

As far as I'm aware, all of our current Catholic cathedrals were built after Catholic Emancipation in the UK in 1829. This means that they are all relatively recent, and it would appear (e.g. Lancaster; Arundel) that the construction of a 19th-century Catholic cathedral did not immediately confer city status in the modern era in the way that a cathedral (originally Catholic but now Protestant) did confer that status in earlier centuries.

It's academic to the discussion regarding Lichfield and Wolverhampton anyway, because they are not Catholic. I was duped by all the references to St Peter!
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Owain wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 18:48
Moore_O wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:31
Owain wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 06:39 Might the fact that St Peter's is a Catholic church have anything to do with it? Most of our historic cathedral cities have Protestant Anglican cathedrals. Catholic cathedrals were all built much later, and did not necessarily give their location city status until later still.
FTFY (as I believe the kids say).

Also, as someone else has almost pointed out, most of our Cathedrals were Roman Catholic - at least if they were built before 1531.
The last time I checked with the pope, Anglicans were Protestants! I wasn't aware that this had changed. :wink:

The point I was making is that our older cathedral cities have Anglican Protestant cathedrals, because those cathedrals have traditionally and automatically conferred city status upon them (irrespective of the fact that they were originally built as Catholic cathedrals).

As far as I'm aware, all of our current Catholic cathedrals were built after Catholic Emancipation in the UK in 1829. This means that they are all relatively recent, and it would appear (e.g. Lancaster; Arundel) that the construction of a 19th-century Catholic cathedral did not immediately confer city status in the modern era in the way that a cathedral (originally Catholic but now Protestant) did confer that status in earlier centuries.

It's academic to the discussion regarding Lichfield and Wolverhampton anyway, because they are not Catholic. I was duped by all the references to St Peter!
The bottom line is that the basis of a settlement being declared a city has changed MANY time in English history. Many of the cities in the UK, including those have cathedrals have never been formally declared cities, they are given that status as they have been claiming to be cities since before time immemorial which in legal terms is before the reign of King Richard I, beginning 6 July 1189.

In the medieval and early modern period having a cathedral was a necessary attribute but since at least 1889, when Birmingham was granted city status without having a cathedral at the time this has not been true. Since then Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Kingston upon Hull and Nottingham all became cities. The guidelines in 1907 for a successful application for City Status were :

A minimum population of 300,000.
A "local metropolitan character"—this implied that the town had a distinct identity of its own and was the centre of a wider area.
A good record of local government.

The rules today seem to be primarily to base decisions on whatever is politically expedient at the time.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

Post by Glenn A »

Another interesting stretch of the A2 is the old Rochester Way through Kidbrooke and Eltham, which is now unclassified. Imagine until 1987, having to live next to one of the busiest roads in Britain.
Another interesting landmark on the Rochester Way Relief Rd, which has now been demolished, was the brutalist concrete Ferrier Estate, which seemed out of keeping with the mostly two storey suburbia around it.
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Re: Remembering the old A2

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Owain wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 18:48 The last time I checked with the pope, Anglicans were Protestants! I wasn't aware that this had changed. :wink:
That is actually a subject about which there is some dissension.

The Anglican Church has always been to use that well known phrase 'A Broad Church'

There are elements in the Anglican organisation which are far from the classical Protestant norm. In most of Europe and Scotland the post reformation protestant churches abandoned the old hierarchical order of Ordained Ministers , Bishops and Archbishops because the basic logic of the new faith was that the message of God was written in its entirety in the bible and every man could be in touch with the divinity at a personal level.

This didnt happen in England, instead the King (Henry VIII) decided that he not the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) was the supreme head of the church in England and for the most part the rest of the organisation remained as it was with only a change of Chief Executive. In fact the precursor to the English Civil war was the Bishops War in Scotland. The Scots took the more typical Calvinist protestant path and declared they didnt need Bishops any more. Charles 1 took umbrage to this and tried to impose the Epicopalian system in Scotland and unleashed revolution in Scotland beore it happened in England.

In the C of E there are many factions. A low church man will regard the church as Protestant and tell you that the Bishops and Archbishops are administrators pure and simple.

A high church man (like the Vicar of St Oswalds in Middlesbrough where I was a choir boy) will tell you that the C of E is NOT a protestant church but is the Reformed Catholic Church of England.

Most do the usual English thing and compromise.
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