M8 D3M will it ever happen?

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Euan
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Euan »

KeithW wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 21:36
jackal wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 21:51 Actually the M8 is 'Scotland's most dangerous road', with the A8 second and A9 third, on the basis of total number of injuries.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... d-13465894
Yes but all that report does is count the number of accidents without relating them to traffic volumes or route length, The M8 (100k AADF) carries 10 times the amount of traffic as the A9 north of Perth (10k AADF). Now the paper says there were 150 collision on the M8 and 123 on the A9. Given that the risk per journey on the A9 is clearly MUCH higher. On that basis the B4563 - Vicar Street, Sedgley (Dudley MB). About 200 metres from end to end is safer than the M1.

Hat tip to Chris Bertram for the post on that :)

In fact an analysis based on the number of accidents per million miles driven showed that the 3 most dangerous roads in Scotland were

1) A7 with an Accident Rate of 2.25
2) A82 with an Accident Rate of 1.9
3) A71 with an Accident Rate of 1.82

If you look at the number of accidents per 100,000 residents then the most dangerous road is the A965 from Kirkwall to Stromness

on the same basis the most dangerous road in England is the A1 through Rutland
Which is precisely the point that I was making previously, actual numbers of collisions without taking a collision rate is misleading when roads have varying levels of traffic on them.

The A82 having an accident rate of 1.9 per million miles driven is hardly a surprise, I have travelled on it many times and virtually every time I am on it there is at least one driver overtaking either at the wrong time or at a dodgy section along the road.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Glenn A »

KeithW wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 21:36
jackal wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 21:51 Actually the M8 is 'Scotland's most dangerous road', with the A8 second and A9 third, on the basis of total number of injuries.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... d-13465894
Yes but all that report does is count the number of accidents without relating them to traffic volumes or route length, The M8 (100k AADF) carries 10 times the amount of traffic as the A9 north of Perth (10k AADF). Now the paper says there were 150 collision on the M8 and 123 on the A9. Given that the risk per journey on the A9 is clearly MUCH higher. On that basis the B4563 - Vicar Street, Sedgley (Dudley MB). About 200 metres from end to end is safer than the M1.

Hat tip to Chris Bertram for the post on that :)

In fact an analysis based on the number of accidents per million miles driven showed that the 3 most dangerous roads in Scotland were

1) A7 with an Accident Rate of 2.25
2) A82 with an Accident Rate of 1.9
3) A71 with an Accident Rate of 1.82

If you look at the number of accidents per 100,000 residents then the most dangerous road is the A965 from Kirkwall to Stromness

on the same basis the most dangerous road in England is the A1 through Rutland
The A82, I can get, as this has some terrible S2 sections that get busy in the summer, but the A7 surprises me as this is mostly a quiet S2 south of Selkirk and the nasty section at Auchenrivock was by passed 9 years ago. However, there are some sharp bends to catch the unwary at night.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Westville89 »

green light wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 15:14 Is there any realistic chance of the M8 becoming three lanes between Edinburgh & Glasgow in the next 20-25 years or at least some sections being upgraded to D3M?

Surely there is at least a case for the route between Hermiston Gate and Livingston to be upgraded to D3M?
I've driven from Livingston into Edinburgh most days for the past 12 years and whilst I agree it's in dire need of D3M it's a more complex issue than that.

As already mentioned Hermiston Gait is a complete turd of a junction as is the City Bypass: any extra capacity on the M8 would just simply bottleneck faster at Hermiston Gait and indeed onto the City Bypass. I'd say that money would be better spent on a proper upgrade of Hermiston Gait first to allow free flowing traffic on and off the M8 onto the A720 and then widen the M8, but then any upgrade to the M8 would probably mean an upgrade to the A720 as well which is also in need of more capacity. Perhaps D3M down to a new free-flow junction at Hermiston Gait with a lane-drop at J1 to allow the D3M to (upgraded A720) D2M change?

Another key point made above is that the M8 is solid only at rush hour - I think we'd benefit from proper vehicle management, perhaps smart lanes / hard shoulder use and variable speed limits set to control the traffic flow during those busy spells as well as banning HGV overtaking during those time windows.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by C83 »

I agree that there is no point in upgrading J1-2 unless Hermiston Gate is rebuilt as freeflow, which would be difficult and expensive.

However J2-4 with a lane gain/drop to the M9 would be very useful. It only takes one pair of lorries to slow that section right down, which happens at all times of day, not just rush hour.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Euan »

Upgrading the A720 may not be so easy in places where it quite literally marks the edge of the city. There are however hard shoulders along the road between Lothianburn and the Water of Leith crossing which would only need to be widened by a small amount to upgrade to D3, but you would lose the hard shoulder as a result. Some junctions would also have to be slightly altered to accommodate the wider road. The rest of the bypass to the east is generally more rural and would not be too difficult to upgrade. I would agree that the A720 would need to be able to cope with more traffic first before thinking about freeflow at Hermiston Gait.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by 22inarow »

The only real engineering challenge to widening the city bypass is the Water of Leith Bridge and Lanark Road (excluding geotechnical issues as Sheriffhall, which is getting an upgrade anyway). Everywhere else could be relatively easily upgraded to D3. Look at the A1 round Newcastle to see what can be done within a narrow corridor, and the A720 isn't half as constrained as that.
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Euan
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Euan »

The A1 in Newcastle certainly makes the A720 in Edinburgh seem easy to upgrade, although parts of the A1 that are still D2 are very closely packed and would be very difficult widen. The wider urban area of Edinburgh is essentially limited by the bypass, unlike Newcastle where the road is surrounded by the outer parts of the city.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

https://goo.gl/maps/tiNT7hzaNKS2

Those narrow lanes may not have been the wisest idea for such a busy road... that's quite a scar from an impact!

Also whoever did the signs for that scheme should be shot.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Johnathan404 »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 14:41 Also whoever did the signs for that scheme should be shot.
We would but the queue of sign designers you have signed up for an execution is incredibly long!
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

Johnathan404 wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 14:53
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 14:41 Also whoever did the signs for that scheme should be shot.
We would but the queue of sign designers you have signed up for an execution is incredibly long!
Very well, gulag it is then.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Westville89 »

On the subject of Hermiston Gait redesign which is buried away on this site somewhere:
hermis.jpg
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

BigG wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 15:32 On the subject of Hermiston Gait redesign which is buried away on this site somewhere:

hermis.jpg
When Truvelo went realistic. :shock: :twisted:
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Truvelo »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 15:34
BigG wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 15:32 On the subject of Hermiston Gait redesign which is buried away on this site somewhere:

hermis.jpg
When Truvelo went realistic. :shock: :twisted:
That is a rather tame design for me :)

Simple but effective you might say.
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Westville89
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Westville89 »

Apologies for the lack of credit to Mr Truvelo!

It's an excellent demonstration of what's been postulated here where the M8 could be D3M coming in from the left, dropping a lane as a slip to the 'A720 North' and the other two lanes flowing nicely onto the existing dual carriageway of the A720.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by A9NWIL »

Big L wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:24 Having a lane 2 HGV ban would work great if only the HGV drivers didn't utterly ignore them.
Cant that be enforced with ANPR tech? eg cameras aimed at lane 2 only that checked for registrations that are registered to HGVs? That way its automatic, the company gets fined and the drivers get a *******!
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Johnathan404 »

lotrjw wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 17:01 Cant that be enforced with ANPR tech? eg cameras aimed at lane 2 only that checked for registrations that are registered to HGVs? That way its automatic, the company gets fined and the drivers get a *******!
Well the idiots in yellow jackets do need something new to set fire to.

If only there was a system which could move around and spot almost any motoring offence.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by A9NWIL »

Johnathan404 wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 17:16
lotrjw wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 17:01 Cant that be enforced with ANPR tech? eg cameras aimed at lane 2 only that checked for registrations that are registered to HGVs? That way its automatic, the company gets fined and the drivers get a *******!
Well the idiots in yellow jackets do need something new to set fire to.

If only there was a system which could move around and spot almost any motoring offence.
Well I know that ANPR wont get foreign HGVs (but it would be hard to fine them anyway), it will pick up what UK registrations are registered to HGVs though.
It should be possible to fine owners of UK HGVs.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by green light »

I know that there is supposed to be a big plan to improve roads in the West of the city as part of the City Deal, so perhaps an upgraded Hermiston Gate could allow a better integration with the M8?
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Euan »

green light wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 15:45 I know that there is supposed to be a big plan to improve roads in the West of the city as part of the City Deal, so perhaps an upgraded Hermiston Gate could allow a better integration with the M8?
It would be good to see something like that. Although at the moment I reckon one of the top priorities for the A720 would be Sherriffhall Roundabout.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by jackal »

Euan wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 17:00
green light wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 15:45 I know that there is supposed to be a big plan to improve roads in the West of the city as part of the City Deal, so perhaps an upgraded Hermiston Gate could allow a better integration with the M8?
It would be good to see something like that. Although at the moment I reckon one of the top priorities for the A720 would be Sherriffhall Roundabout.
That scheme is well advanced, with draft orders due this year.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects ... oundabout/
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