M8 D3M will it ever happen?

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M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by green light »

Is there any realistic chance of the M8 becoming three lanes between Edinburgh & Glasgow in the next 20-25 years or at least some sections being upgraded to D3M?

Surely there is at least a case for the route between Hermiston Gate and Livingston to be upgraded to D3M?
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Duncan macknight »

In my opinion....no. I’ve driven the M8 and most of the time you sit in the left lane with the lorries or you do warp speed in the fast lane overtaking everything. That’s in rush hour mind you. Other than that the route can handle its traffic volumes fairly well but when lorries start overtaking each other it can take a while for the queue to clear
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

Start with the Lane 2 HGV ban at peak periods and then if there are still problems look at widening. Widening from M9 to A720 just speeds you to some traffic lights quicker so is pointless.

There is probably an argument for widening between M9 and Livingston however. The steep climb up from Livingston doesn't help due to the weird lane drop.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Truvelo »

ALR is probably the most realistic option if Scotland embraces it as much as down here.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Burns »

Scotland doesn't seem to understand consistent D3M anyway (except for the A74(M)). Just look at the mess of lane drops and gains along the M80. No-one uses the road to its full capacity because the lanes drop and gain all the time, causing people who aren't completely familiar with the route to ignore the extra lanes when they crop up.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by orudge »

The M80 upgrade was at one point meant to be a consistent D3M I believe, but it was watered down.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by M19 »

orudge wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 20:01 The M80 upgrade was at one point meant to be a consistent D3M I believe, but it was watered down.
It was watered down supposedly to discourage commuting apparently, which was a backward logic, in my opinion, and at an awful lot of expense. It should have been D4 between the M73 and Cumbernauld and D3 up to the M80/M876 junction.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by NICK 647063 »

The few times I’ve visited Scotland it’s clear they haven’t really got much D3M anywhere, it seems like the odd section here and there, of course you have the A74(M)/M74 which I must add I have never seen such a quiet motorway, don’t get me wrong I’m all for future proofing but I think a D2M would have done very nicely.....

Most English motorways are taking the leap from D3M to ALR giving 4 lanes, maybe one day the M8 will be widened but it seems to cope just fine, do remember Scotland is pretty big but has a smaller population than Yorkshire alone, so it’s very spread out so simply doesn’t have the traffic volumes unlike us lot down here that are packed in!
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Euan »

NICK 647063 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 22:04 The few times I’ve visited Scotland it’s clear they haven’t really got much D3M anywhere, it seems like the odd section here and there, of course you have the A74(M)/M74 which I must add I have never seen such a quiet motorway, don’t get me wrong I’m all for future proofing but I think a D2M would have done very nicely.....
Indeed, whenever I have travelled down south along the M6 it has felt slightly odd having a D3M width road passing through the fairly remote and mountainous parts of Cumbria. Normally I would only associate a motorway any wider than D2M with a large city or wider urban area, at least within Scotland anyway.

The A74(M) was constructed around two decades later than the original M74 during which time we probably learned how to "future-proof" roads, so I think that will be the reason for the A74(M) being D3M rather than D2M.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Ronnie »

M19 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 21:49It was watered down supposedly to discourage commuting apparently, which was a backward logic, in my opinion, and at an awful lot of expense. It should have been D4 between the M73 and Cumbernauld and D3 up to the M80/M876 junction.
It certainly doesn’t discourage commuting, the bit between Mollinsburn and Haggs is nose to tail start/stop at peak times. In fact it’s like that just about all the time. They should have just made it all continuous D3M when they upgraded because it’s definitely going to need to be revisited at some point soon.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Euan »

NICK 647063 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 22:04 Most English motorways are taking the leap from D3M to ALR giving 4 lanes, maybe one day the M8 will be widened but it seems to cope just fine, do remember Scotland is pretty big but has a smaller population than Yorkshire alone, so it’s very spread out so simply doesn’t have the traffic volumes unlike us lot down here that are packed in!
The Central Belt is really quite packed - at least half of the Scottish population lives within the core part (i.e. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Lanarkshire, Lothian etc...), I believe the figure increases to around two thirds or even three quarters when the wider region is applied (including places like Fife and Ayrshire). Even at that it is merely dwarfed by the population living within the Merseyside/Yorkshire belt across the north of England, so it is really no surprise that even the M8 doesn't get a D3M upgrade. Having said that, the dense population of the Central Belt is certainly more than made up for by the large expanses of mountains and peaceful shires.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Berk »

Burns wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 19:49Scotland doesn't seem to understand consistent D3M anyway (except for the A74(M)). Just look at the mess of lane drops and gains along the M80. No-one uses the road to its full capacity because the lanes drop and gain all the time, causing people who aren't completely familiar with the route to ignore the extra lanes when they crop up.
Not that I’m justifying the situation at all, but it was planned that way for the recent upgrade?? I remember reading about it and thinking it’d cause problems... :?

And yet again, it’s an example of how the A74 was over-prioritised for upgrades, when other sections have been left behind.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by exiled »

I agree with Bryn's assessment. For the M8 between Glasgow and Edinburgh any widenings are going to be restricted to the West Lothian stretch if that. The issue for that part of the M8 is it is only 0700 - 0900 and 1600 - 1800 Monday to Friday that it is needful of D3, most of the rest of the time it does not really need it.

The Scottish Government has put its emphasis in improving the rails between Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than the roads with the new Class 385 trains and electrification.

The A74(M) is not really a comparison, IIRC it being D3(M) is more to do with it being PFI under the Tories in the 1990s rather than any particular capacity need.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Burns wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 19:49 Scotland doesn't seem to understand consistent D3M anyway (except for the A74(M)). Just look at the mess of lane drops and gains along the M80. No-one uses the road to its full capacity because the lanes drop and gain all the time, causing people who aren't completely familiar with the route to ignore the extra lanes when they crop up.
Made worse by HGV and trailers which can't use lane 3 when it's D3m but can when it's a lane drop/gain. Mind you, since the M74 was extended, strangers on the M8 westbound are probably guaranteed to be in the wrong lane as it changes so often.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

exiled wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 08:11 I agree with Bryn's assessment. For the M8 between Glasgow and Edinburgh any widenings are going to be restricted to the West Lothian stretch if that. The issue for that part of the M8 is it is only 0700 - 0900 and 1600 - 1800 Monday to Friday that it is needful of D3, most of the rest of the time it does not really need it.

The Scottish Government has put its emphasis in improving the rails between Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than the roads with the new Class 385 trains and electrification.

The A74(M) is not really a comparison, IIRC it being D3(M) is more to do with it being PFI under the Tories in the 1990s rather than any particular capacity need.
D2M wouldn't have been enough upgrade to justify the cost, from D2 which the A74 was by then.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Altnabreac »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 17:13 Start with the Lane 2 HGV ban at peak periods and then if there are still problems look at widening. Widening from M9 to A720 just speeds you to some traffic lights quicker so is pointless.

There is probably an argument for widening between M9 and Livingston however. The steep climb up from Livingston doesn't help due to the weird lane drop.
I think J4 - J2 would be the priority section. The congestion is heaviest on this section and it would tie in with any future M7 Fastlink proposal.

A71 improvements from Wilkieston to A720 might be useful as well. A801 Avon Gorge improvement would help reduce lorry movements on the M8 and M9 too as at the moment some hauliers will not use the A801 because of the substandard section and instead they divert via Newbridge for journeys like Eurocentral / Bathgate to Grangemouth / Falkirk.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by jackal »

Of course some of the route was recently upgraded to D3M (or better), admittedly from previous A8 designation.

There was related widening of the M8 itself to four lanes west of Ballieston interchange. Also adjacent sections of M9, M73 and M74 were widened recently.

The general standard seems to include hard shoulder except where it can't be accommodated by structures. The M74 even has hard shoulders behind bridge supports, similar to part of the M25, which suggests there is still something of a premium in Scotland on HS. If the M8 were to be widened further I'd expect something similar. There hasn't been the same craze for HSR/ALR as there has been down south.

A deeper issue is what you do with the extra traffic at the Edinburgh end. Until Newbridge, Hermiston and the city bypass are sorted out it may be that extra capacity on the M8 would be of limited value.
Last edited by jackal on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

There is quite possibly over-provision with having the A8 and M8 alongside each other between J6 and J8.

Certainly people have been asking why the A8 hasn't been singled like the old A74 was. I suspect the answer lies in future development ambitions as this part of the central belt is likely to be attractive for new housing and commercial set ups (see J4A and Eurocentral), as well as Ravenscraig.

You are right in your view about the A720, jackal. There truly is no point just shifting traffic to Hermiston quicker as the problems there will be far worse.

How does the drop to D2M at J6 cope? If that manages except at peak times then there's arguably no need to do much at all.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Big L »

Having a lane 2 HGV ban would work great if only the HGV drivers didn't utterly ignore them.
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Re: M8 D3M will it ever happen?

Post by Altnabreac »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:20 There is quite possibly over-provision with having the A8 and M8 alongside each other between J6 and J8.

Certainly people have been asking why the A8 hasn't been singled like the old A74 was. I suspect the answer lies in future development ambitions as this part of the central belt is likely to be attractive for new housing and commercial set ups (see J4A and Eurocentral), as well as Ravenscraig.

You are right in your view about the A720, jackal. There truly is no point just shifting traffic to Hermiston quicker as the problems there will be far worse.

How does the drop to D2M at J6 cope? If that manages except at peak times then there's arguably no need to do much at all.
The lane drop eastbound at J6 isn't great at peak times but seems to operate OK the rest of the time. The flow between J6 and Harthill is then usually pretty good once you're past the lane drop before problems start again. J4-J2 is a car park at peak times and not much better in shoulder peak. It really needs to be the priority section for investment.
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