The future of smart motorways

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Big L
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Big L »

But if signs have been blank/NSL for a while and from a distance you see a red circle with an unknown number in it, surely anyone sensible will slow to at least 60.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jackal »

ais523 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 02:15 They're clear when you're near them, but blurred and faint from a long distance (in much the same way that modern computer screens are clearer to read at some angles than at others).
Actually the older TN technology has much worse viewing angles than the IPS and VA panels that dominate now.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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ais523 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 02:15 I find Smart Motorway signs surprisingly hard to read at range. They're clear when you're near them, but blurred and faint from a long distance (in much the same way that modern computer screens are clearer to read at some angles than at others).

Normally there's enough time to react to them in the distance where you can clearly see the sign, but especially in cases where a 50 limit is indistinguishable at range from a 60 limit, I'm worried that there isn't always going to be enough time for everyone to react to what the sign says.
At night the newer MS4 can be extremely bright, and until you get close you sometimes see a smudge of red and yellow.

I genuinely believe managed motorways would have been successful if they weren't so mismanaged.
Like many projects, the principles were good but the implementation abysmal.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bomag »

EpicChef wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 15:28
ais523 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 02:15 I find Smart Motorway signs surprisingly hard to read at range. They're clear when you're near them, but blurred and faint from a long distance (in much the same way that modern computer screens are clearer to read at some angles than at others).

Normally there's enough time to react to them in the distance where you can clearly see the sign, but especially in cases where a 50 limit is indistinguishable at range from a 60 limit, I'm worried that there isn't always going to be enough time for everyone to react to what the sign says.
At night the newer MS4 can be extremely bright, and until you get close you sometimes see a smudge of red and yellow.
That's because they use the light output settings in BS EN 12966 commonly used in Europe. They go for conspicuity over readability.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Is corruption not standard government policy these days?
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Big L wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:33
Is corruption not standard government policy these days?
You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment...
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Big L wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:33
Is corruption not standard government policy these days?
"Policy, Minister? Oh, no. Winking at corruption could never be Government policy. Only Government practice."
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 08:45
Big L wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:33
Is corruption not standard government policy these days?
"Policy, Minister? Oh, no. Winking at corruption could never be Government policy. Only Government practice."
- Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jervi »

Whilst the upgrade from DHSR to ALR has been paused. The works to the central barriers is still going ahead.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/work ... -motorways

As far as I am aware, the central barrier is the main physical difference between DHSR & ALR other than the paint/road markings. So this is somewhat carrying out the upgrade by stealth during the pause.
All DHSR motorways will have their barriers upgraded by 2025.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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This is an interesting press release from National Highways

Basically they are converting the steel central reservation barriers to concrete barriers on the Dynamic hard shoulders at the following locations

M1 J10 to J13
M6 J4A to 10a
M4 J19 to J20
M5 J16 to J18
M62 J25 to J30
M42 J4 to J7

Now it says it is for safety and will be completed in 2025. Funny year 2025, when the five year review in data on smart motorways ends, and they can commence work on them again. Converting the central reservation to dynamic concrete barriers is obviously the major bit of work they can do now, and they converting to All lane Running is presumably some paint and changing the settings on the overhead signs.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

If the timeline for concrete barrier installation is as it was on past schemes, that's going to chase significant pain at peak hours. DHSR motorways reduced to 3 narrow lanes will be a bit of a black spot. I guess it was bound to happen with the ALR conversion anyway but it could make the network a real mess for a while.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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A303Chris wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 09:07 ….Converting the central reservation to dynamic concrete barriers is obviously the major bit of work they can do now, and they converting to All lane Running is presumably some paint and changing the settings on the overhead signs.
Anyone care to start a sweepstake on how long it will take to do some paint and change settings? I’m going to go for 2 years for the M6 through Birmingham. Unless they decide to throw a couple of extra emergency refuges in, in which case I’ll go for 4.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Big L wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:38
A303Chris wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 09:07 ….Converting the central reservation to dynamic concrete barriers is obviously the major bit of work they can do now, and they converting to All lane Running is presumably some paint and changing the settings on the overhead signs.
Anyone care to start a sweepstake on how long it will take to do some paint and change settings? I’m going to go for 2 years for the M6 through Birmingham. Unless they decide to throw a couple of extra emergency refuges in, in which case I’ll go for 4.
I'd recon 16 weeks if just works to paint, markings, studs, signs & installation of new SM radar stuff. However if additional ERA are being constructed I'd make it 26 weeks. At least they will still have the HS to use for traffic management for the final time.
I'm not aware of the condition of the carriageway on most of the DHSR sections, but they may also choose to reconstruct/resurface some of the lanes at the same time like they have done with most ALR schemes, in which case I'd make it 38 weeks.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

jervi wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:58
Big L wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:38
A303Chris wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 09:07 ….Converting the central reservation to dynamic concrete barriers is obviously the major bit of work they can do now, and they converting to All lane Running is presumably some paint and changing the settings on the overhead signs.
Anyone care to start a sweepstake on how long it will take to do some paint and change settings? I’m going to go for 2 years for the M6 through Birmingham. Unless they decide to throw a couple of extra emergency refuges in, in which case I’ll go for 4.
I'd recon 16 weeks if just works to paint, markings, studs, signs & installation of new SM radar stuff. However if additional ERA are being constructed I'd make it 26 weeks. At least they will still have the HS to use for traffic management for the final time.
I'm not aware of the condition of the carriageway on most of the DHSR sections, but they may also choose to reconstruct/resurface some of the lanes at the same time like they have done with most ALR schemes, in which case I'd make it 38 weeks.
Were the DHSR hard shoulders strengthened to full traffic bearing standards originally? If I was to calculate the traffic loading for Lane 1 on an ALR motorway it would be considerably more than on a part-time running lane.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

DB617 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:35
jervi wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:58
Big L wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:38
Anyone care to start a sweepstake on how long it will take to do some paint and change settings? I’m going to go for 2 years for the M6 through Birmingham. Unless they decide to throw a couple of extra emergency refuges in, in which case I’ll go for 4.
I'd recon 16 weeks if just works to paint, markings, studs, signs & installation of new SM radar stuff. However if additional ERA are being constructed I'd make it 26 weeks. At least they will still have the HS to use for traffic management for the final time.
I'm not aware of the condition of the carriageway on most of the DHSR sections, but they may also choose to reconstruct/resurface some of the lanes at the same time like they have done with most ALR schemes, in which case I'd make it 38 weeks.
Were the DHSR hard shoulders strengthened to full traffic bearing standards originally? If I was to calculate the traffic loading for Lane 1 on an ALR motorway it would be considerably more than on a part-time running lane.
In many cases the hard shoulder was strengthened as part of the work to resurface 3-lane motorways the first time it was needed - this allowed 2+2 contraflow while the other carriageway was resurfaced.
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Big L
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Big L »

DB617 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:35 Were the DHSR hard shoulders strengthened to full traffic bearing standards originally? If I was to calculate the traffic loading for Lane 1 on an ALR motorway it would be considerably more than on a part-time running lane.
Given how little traffic uses lane 1 of an ALR motorway (“it’s dangerous” ie “I don’t like looking through the big sheet of glass when I’m driving”) I can’t see it being an issue.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:46 In many cases the hard shoulder was strengthened as part of the work to resurface 3-lane motorways the first time it was needed - this allowed 2+2 contraflow while the other carriageway was resurfaced.
In fact the original hard shoulders did not even have chips in the Hot Rolled Asphalt and had to be surfaced dressed first to have sufficient skid resistance top operate as a live running lane.

This happened on the M4 between J12 and J15, which was within Berkshire CC's agency agreement and both lanes were totally resurfaced along the entire length between 1987 and 1991. I started work in 87 and worked on the later schemes.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by brummie_rob »

Does indeed look like work by stealth however considering barely anyone uses the hard shoulder on the M6 SB especially between J9-J8 then it may not be so bad.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by domcoop »

A303Chris wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 13:55
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:46 In many cases the hard shoulder was strengthened as part of the work to resurface 3-lane motorways the first time it was needed - this allowed 2+2 contraflow while the other carriageway was resurfaced.
In fact the original hard shoulders did not even have chips in the Hot Rolled Asphalt and had to be surfaced dressed first to have sufficient skid resistance top operate as a live running lane.

This happened on the M4 between J12 and J15, which was within Berkshire CC's agency agreement and both lanes were totally resurfaced along the entire length between 1987 and 1991. I started work in 87 and worked on the later schemes.
Out of interest is that when the hard shoulder colour changed from red to black? (I don't know if it was ever red on the M4, but in the North West hard shoulder always used to be red, but only a few stretches remain)
Dominic
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