The future of smart motorways

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RichardA35
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by RichardA35 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 18:13
millionmiledriver wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 17:25So they have cameras everywhere but it still took recovery 20 mins to arrive whilst I positioned myself behind the crash barrier .
I'm sorry to hear this happened to you, but I'm a bit confused by this statement. The cameras aren't there to automatically call up a recovery truck if you stop, so what do the cameras have to do with the recovery time? Have I missed something?
I suspect it was within a roadworks section offering full cctv coverage and free recovery - to me, the "smart motorway" reference is irrelevant. It could have been any works requiring a hardshoulder or lane closure.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by millionmiledriver »

it was in a section being converted to smart motorway in a section that was 4 running lanes the recovery driver told me it was on camera but it worries me it took 20 minutes and I was in a live lane
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by Big L »

So it wasn't a smart motorway. Just an ordinary section of motorway, with roadworks, which will become a smart motorway.
Make poetry history.

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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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As many of you know, I have broken down on a smart motorway a couple of years ago- or rather, I got a double puncture on a section of newly smartified M6 after running over some debris in lane 4. I managed to get the car over to lane 1, and spotted an opportune gap in the crash barrier to get the car off the road.

However, it quickly became apparent that it wasn't possible to recover me (because of the space constraints) without a full motorway closure. I also wasn't visible on any cameras at that location, so the AA had to liaise with highways england who in turn had to liaise with the police.

The process of recovery was to move the vehicle back into closed lane 1 by driving it on a little bit, and then run it at slow speed to the next exit, where there was some hard shoulder; and then wait for another AA flatbed to collect. It took about five or six hours if I recall correctly.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 17:38 Now imagine you had been on a "conventional" motorway, in Lane 3 or 4 - there is no way you would have reached a hard shoulder, and no matrix signs to close the lane......
I had the same on the M25 at 70mph in ther morning rush hour - front wheel puncture in the right-hand lane - and managed to reach the hard shoulder straightforwardly.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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WHBM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:30 on the M25 at 70mph in ther morning rush hour
:shock:
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by millionmiledriver »

just to clarify it was being converted to Smart motorway but where I broke down it was 4 lanes running with NO hard shoulder and we were fenced in by crash barrier .
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:54
WHBM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:30 on the M25 at 70mph in ther morning rush hour
:shock:
The M25 isn’t the all day car park that folklore would have you believe! Parts will reliably come to a crawl in the rush hour, and some bits are congested at other times of day too, but there are also stretches that will run at 70 in the rush hour, with all four lanes solid with traffic. You need your wits about you because it’s the worst of all worlds, really, and any slow down that results in braking requires everyone on the road to have quick reflexes and be paying attention.

My Smart Motorway breakdown was on an ALR section of the M3 in the morning rush hour, again thick with traffic but running at 70mph. I had a tyre that ruptured and quickly started shredding. I managed to get from lane 4 to lane 1 and then travel another half mile to the next refuge area.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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c2R wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 09:03As many of you know, I have broken down on a smart motorway a couple of years ago- or rather, I got a double puncture on a section of newly smartified M6 after running over some debris in lane 4. I managed to get the car over to lane 1, and spotted an opportune gap in the crash barrier to get the car off the road.

However, it quickly became apparent that it wasn't possible to recover me (because of the space constraints) without a full motorway closure. I also wasn't visible on any cameras at that location, so the AA had to liaise with highways england who in turn had to liaise with the police.
I'm struggling to understand how a single stopped car in/off lane 1 could require all 4 lanes to be closed in order to be recovered. What space constraints could possibly need more than 2 lanes out of the 4 closed off?
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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Stevie D wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 18:26
c2R wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 09:03As many of you know, I have broken down on a smart motorway a couple of years ago- or rather, I got a double puncture on a section of newly smartified M6 after running over some debris in lane 4. I managed to get the car over to lane 1, and spotted an opportune gap in the crash barrier to get the car off the road.

However, it quickly became apparent that it wasn't possible to recover me (because of the space constraints) without a full motorway closure. I also wasn't visible on any cameras at that location, so the AA had to liaise with highways england who in turn had to liaise with the police.
I'm struggling to understand how a single stopped car in/off lane 1 could require all 4 lanes to be closed in order to be recovered. What space constraints could possibly need more than 2 lanes out of the 4 closed off?
I believe that the police were also trying to clear the carriageway further back of any debris that caused the puncture - apparently there had been an accident on the other carriageway that had spread bits of metal into the running lanes on my side - but I'm obviously not party to the decision making that went on! I was cold and wet and waiting to be recovered!
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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millionmiledriver wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 16:15 just to clarify it was being converted to Smart motorway but where I broke down it was 4 lanes running with NO hard shoulder and we were fenced in by crash barrier .
In effect then just a normal motorway with road works and no "smart tech".

Not sure how the free recovery works on these! Assume it is patrolled by a recovery vehicle as they're wouldn't be full cctv.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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It's notable how, although DfT give one of the principal justifications for hard shoulder removal as "cars are much more reliable nowadays", the most common form of need for a shoulder from the experiences given above, self included, is sudden tyre failure, not mechanical issues.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by Debaser »

WHBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:33 It's notable how, although DfT give one of the principal justifications for hard shoulder removal as "cars are much more reliable nowadays", the most common form of need for a shoulder from the experiences given above, self included, is sudden tyre failure, not mechanical issues.
I think the main reason was them finding out that 90% of stops on the hardshoulder were for non emergencies. Then the most common form of breakdown being running out of fuel - a situation I don't think has changed. That is, by far the majority of stops were either not needed or were within the power of the driver to prevent.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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Debaser wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:30 I think the main reason was them finding out that 90% of stops on the hardshoulder were for non emergencies. Then the most common form of breakdown being running out of fuel - a situation I don't think has changed. That is, by far the majority of stops were either not needed or were within the power of the driver to prevent.
Well that's just ridiculous, to say that because the failure was in the control of the driver to prevent we won't provide a shoulder and thus inconvenience everyone else. What about mechanical breakdowns where the car has not been serviced to the manufacturers schedule ? Or children vomiting and choking in the back seat - you shouldn't have given them so much breakfast before setting off ?
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by John McAdam »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 17:54
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:54
WHBM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:30 on the M25 at 70mph in ther morning rush hour
:shock:
The M25 isn’t the all day car park that folklore would have you believe! Parts will reliably come to a crawl in the rush hour, and some bits are congested at other times of day too, but there are also stretches that will run at 70 in the rush hour, with all four lanes solid with traffic. You need your wits about you because it’s the worst of all worlds, really, and any slow down that results in braking requires everyone on the road to have quick reflexes and be paying attention.

In heavier traffic as you describe there's a lot to be said for a speed limit reduction to 60mph, as indeed often happens on the M25. Reduce the speed differential between different vehicles and lanes, give drivers more reaction time etc etc. Just makes things a bit calmer and dials down some of the hectic 'must get in front' driving.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by RichardA35 »

WHBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 13:00
Debaser wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:30 I think the main reason was them finding out that 90% of stops on the hardshoulder were for non emergencies. Then the most common form of breakdown being running out of fuel - a situation I don't think has changed. That is, by far the majority of stops were either not needed or were within the power of the driver to prevent.
Well that's just ridiculous, to say that because the failure was in the control of the driver to prevent we won't provide a shoulder and thus inconvenience everyone else. What about mechanical breakdowns where the car has not been serviced to the manufacturers schedule ?
That then is in the control of the driver - they have chosen to travel with a potentially defective vehicle.
WHBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 13:00 Or children vomiting and choking in the back seat - you shouldn't have given them so much breakfast before setting off ?
Whilst needing swift action, personally, I would not class this as an emergency - I would be coming off at the next exit or services if convenient, rather than have my family exposed to the hazards of the hard shoulder. The choice to stop is by the individual driver.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by MFB »

Debaser wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:30
WHBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:33 It's notable how, although DfT give one of the principal justifications for hard shoulder removal as "cars are much more reliable nowadays", the most common form of need for a shoulder from the experiences given above, self included, is sudden tyre failure, not mechanical issues.
I think the main reason was them finding out that 90% of stops on the hardshoulder were for non emergencies. Then the most common form of breakdown being running out of fuel - a situation I don't think has changed. That is, by far the majority of stops were either not needed or were within the power of the driver to prevent.
If there's still a significant number of people not managing their fuel properly just imagine what it'll be like when we're all forced into EVs!
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by WHBM »

RichardA35 wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 13:48 That then is in the control of the driver - they have chosen to travel with a potentially defective vehicle.
Sure. But it doesn't justify the "Yaa boo, we're going to engineer out the safety provision because you're a plonker and I'm not" attitude.

The one time I ran out of fuel on the motorway was when the fuel gauge still showed a quarter. New car, happened again, turned out the floater in the tank was defective.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 17:54 My Smart Motorway breakdown was on an ALR section of the M3 in the morning rush hour, again thick with traffic but running at 70mph. I had a tyre that ruptured and quickly started shredding. I managed to get from lane 4 to lane 1 and then travel another half mile to the next refuge area.
This is the point I've tried to make before... there are very VERY few circumstances where a car stops suddenly without warning... most "breakdowns" have a warning on the dashboard (even punctures will trigger a TPWS warning on more modern cars), and/or the car is still driveable (albeit slowly and with care) to a safe space.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by Conekicker »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 07:42
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 17:54 My Smart Motorway breakdown was on an ALR section of the M3 in the morning rush hour, again thick with traffic but running at 70mph. I had a tyre that ruptured and quickly started shredding. I managed to get from lane 4 to lane 1 and then travel another half mile to the next refuge area.
This is the point I've tried to make before... there are very VERY few circumstances where a car stops suddenly without warning... most "breakdowns" have a warning on the dashboard (even punctures will trigger a TPWS warning on more modern cars), and/or the car is still driveable (albeit slowly and with care) to a safe space.
Very few is not none and if you're driving slowly and carefully, praying that those behind you are sufficiently alert to avoid ramming into you would be advisable, even for the non-religious.

There is far too much disregarding of the realities of vehicle defects, coupled with ill-informed reliance on less than totally reliable HE technology going on in this thread. And also in certain factions at HE. Unfortunately.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
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