The future of smart motorways

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Conekicker
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:45 The future safety problems caused by less proactive maintenance because there's no way to undertake tasks without closing live lanes will be the one to watch.

Either get used to motorways being shut nearly every single night or roadworks just not being done and defects start to contribute to collisions.
Apart from some types of bridge or gantry work and the occasional genuine emergency, there shouldn't be a need to fully close a 4 lane ALR for maintenance works. At least one lane should be able to be kept open at all times.

One would hope that the HE manager for any given route won't accept the tales of woe that some contractors might be tempted to spin, saying that a motorway must be closed for safety reasons, when in fact the real reason is that it simply makes whatever the job is cheaper for the contractor. The needs of the travelling public being "accidentally" ignored by aforesaid contractor.

Of course, that NEVER happens.

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Barkstar
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Barkstar »

2 Sheds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 17:14
Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 13:12 There's an extremely interesting safety and capacity article in the latest Highways Magazine Vol 90 #5 pages 28-29. Casts doubt on smart ALR favouring 'controlled' (smarts while retaining shoulder).
Link -
https://edition.pagesuite-professional. ... 217f71d22c
There was a feature on smart motorway safety on Radio 4’s More or less this week. It was broadcast on Wed at 9a.m. and repeated in the last hour. For anyone unfamiliar with the programme it attempts to look behind the headlines and proclamations in the news in an unbiased examination of statistics. The conclusion was Smart motorways are ‘safer’ but probably because speeds are lower and drivers tend to pay more attention. Slightly off topic but there was also a fascinating item on the crazy way bra sizes are measured.
I listened to that. They were using a thesis written by a student (not that that makes it any less worthy). And it highlighted that the change in driving behaviour clouds the issue somewhat - so it's difficult to give a definitive answer. When everyone has got used to a particular section of Smart motorway then it could be a better for comparison but by then traffic patterns will no doubt have changed and we are back to square one.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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One wonders what "different driver behaviour" happens. As I drive along the M25, and the different styles of road, Smart or not, come and go, I'm not aware of any difference in my behaviour - and I'm probably more aware of the different road characteristics than most.

The thing about lower speeds seems just supposition. Most collisions happen at notably under the prevailing speed limit. Single vehicle accidents (ie leaving the road) have a much higher incidence of being full speed, but then typically occur at well under the roads' capacity, smart or not (the highest rate of single vehicle accidents per million miles travelled happens in the time interval 0300-0600, when the road is handling its least capacity).

I've sometimes pondered about sightlines on Smart conversions, particularly on the M25 J25-24 (Enfield-Potters Bar) which has a series of rises and falls, and continuous reverse curvature. I'm pretty sure that this was originally laid out to minimum sightline standards for 70mph, which of course included, on left-hand horizontal curvature, sight lines across the hard shoulder. Now traffic is running full speed on that previous shoulder, their forward sightlines are reduced, yet I don't believe there was any change in standards, nor any earthworks to improve sighting. Once you think about this and do some trials about forward sighting from the different lanes, it's surprising what a difference lane positioning makes. Overbridge piers appear to impact it the most.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Big L »

Not a problem, no one on that section of the M25 uses lane 1 and not many use lane 2.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Big L wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:52 Not a problem, no one on that section of the M25 uses lane 1 and not many use lane 2.
:lol: The comment is funny but there’s nothing funny about the ignorant drivers and the road capacity reduction some of them create. I undertook a middle lane hogger on the M1 recently. I was in lane 1 doing an indicated 72mph. Gradually caught this clown up and passed on the left. Lane 1 was empty as far ahead as you could see. You should have seen the dagger look I got from the ‘wife’ in the passenger seat. I watched hogger in my mirror for some minutes and many moved from lane 1 to lane 3 to pass it and then returned to lane 1. Driver obviously believes lane 1 is the lorry lane.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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WHBM wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:24One wonders what "different driver behaviour" happens. As I drive along the M25, and the different styles of road, Smart or not, come and go, I'm not aware of any difference in my behaviour - and I'm probably more aware of the different road characteristics than most.
To me the two main differences are that speeds are slower and people are more likely to stay in lane.

On "uncontrolled" motorways in free flowing conditions I'd expect the right hand lane to move at about 80 with some people bombing along nearer 90. That's much less prevalent behaviour on Smart Motorways, where most people seem to be in the 65-75mph bracket and people topping 80 are rare. So, speeds in general seem to be a bit more moderate, presumably because enforcement is more visible and more regular.

Lane discipline is poor everywhere, and a bit of a bugbear of mine, but on Smart Motorways you do notice people just picking a lane and sitting in it - dawdling at 60 in lane 3 is not uncommon.

So my reading would be that people moving a bit more slowly, and making fewer lane changes, reduces the risk somewhat.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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When we drove up M1 in early June, there were cases where a limit wasn’t even set on the VMS, but the cameras were strictly doing 10% + 2, and people cruising through at 80 were duly flashed.

Equally, there was an issue where a 40 limit was set for no apparent reason - people who ignored it and sped on at 50 or higher got flashed too.

And the HADECS3 cameras do have a visible flash, at least at night.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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EpicChef wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 00:04 When we drove up M1 in early June, there were cases where a limit wasn’t even set on the VMS, but the cameras were strictly doing 10% + 2, and people cruising through at 80 were duly flashed.

Equally, there was an issue where a 40 limit was set for no apparent reason - people who ignored it and sped on at 50 or higher got flashed too.

And the HADECS3 cameras do have a visible flash, at least at night.
Exceed the speed limit and you are in no position to complain, welcome to the real world. At the NSL 80 is above the threshold at which cameras will trigger, anyone who doesn't realise this deserves the points on their license.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 00:04 When we drove up M1 in early June, there were cases where a limit wasn’t even set on the VMS, but the cameras were strictly doing 10% + 2, and people cruising through at 80 were duly flashed.

Equally, there was an issue where a 40 limit was set for no apparent reason - people who ignored it and sped on at 50 or higher got flashed too.

And the HADECS3 cameras do have a visible flash, at least at night.

Exceed the speed limit and you are in no position to complain, welcome to the real world. At the NSL 80 is above the threshold at which cameras will trigger, anyone who doesn't realise this deserves the points on their license.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Mark Hewitt »

KeithW wrote:
EpicChef wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 00:04 When we drove up M1 in early June, there were cases where a limit wasn’t even set on the VMS, but the cameras were strictly doing 10% + 2, and people cruising through at 80 were duly flashed.

Equally, there was an issue where a 40 limit was set for no apparent reason - people who ignored it and sped on at 50 or higher got flashed too.

And the HADECS3 cameras do have a visible flash, at least at night.

Exceed the speed limit and you are in no position to complain, welcome to the real world. At the NSL 80 is above the threshold at which cameras will trigger, anyone who doesn't realise this deserves the points on their license.
I've never had any issue at an indicated 80mph which given speedo inaccuracy generally works out to around 76mph anyway. These days my choice of set speed is usually 75mph which is going to be very close to a real 70mph.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 07:02
KeithW wrote:
EpicChef wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 00:04 When we drove up M1 in early June, there were cases where a limit wasn’t even set on the VMS, but the cameras were strictly doing 10% + 2, and people cruising through at 80 were duly flashed.

Equally, there was an issue where a 40 limit was set for no apparent reason - people who ignored it and sped on at 50 or higher got flashed too.

And the HADECS3 cameras do have a visible flash, at least at night.

Exceed the speed limit and you are in no position to complain, welcome to the real world. At the NSL 80 is above the threshold at which cameras will trigger, anyone who doesn't realise this deserves the points on their license.
I've never had any issue at an indicated 80mph which given speedo inaccuracy generally works out to around 76mph anyway. These days my choice of set speed is usually 75mph which is going to be very close to a real 70mph.
The speedos on some cars are much more accurate than they used to be - based on a GPS app, my VW is only 1 mph fast at 75mph on the speedo.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Mark Hewitt wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 07:02
Exceed the speed limit and you are in no position to complain, welcome to the real world. At the NSL 80 is above the threshold at which cameras will trigger, anyone who doesn't realise this deserves the points on their license.
I've never had any issue at an indicated 80mph which given speedo inaccuracy generally works out to around 76mph anyway. These days my choice of set speed is usually 75mph which is going to be very close to a real 70mph.
[/quote]

Which is pretty much what I do and my one and only speeding ticket was collected in 1974 for doing 44 in a 40 limit. No ACPO guidelines back then.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by ManomayLR »

We were well within 10% + 2. We didn't get flashed.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by darkcape »

The camera on the M1 Northbound J23a-24 was flashing people at about 74mph when first installed, which I once used to encourage someone who'd been up my backside for a while to speed past and he duly was flashed :D of course I doubt he was prosecuted and the camera since has been recalibrated.

I've also seen the sister camera at J24 southbound flashing people at 20mph when they were doing the ALR snagging works on night shifts & narrowed everything down to one lane, again great for all those zooming up the closed lanes to force their way in at the cone taper...
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Barkstar »

EpicChef wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 00:04 When we drove up M1 in early June, there were cases where a limit wasn’t even set on the VMS, but the cameras were strictly doing 10% + 2, and people cruising through at 80 were duly flashed.

Equally, there was an issue where a 40 limit was set for no apparent reason - people who ignored it and sped on at 50 or higher got flashed too.

And the HADECS3 cameras do have a visible flash, at least at night.
So at least on that motorway it appears the cameras operate 24/7. My impression from comments on here and elsewhere was that the cameras only operate when the VMS show a reduced limit. Certainly I've seen cars doing way over the limit on the smart section of the M62 between Leeds and Huddersfield and no camera flashes.
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breaking down on smart motorways

Post by millionmiledriver »

It happened to me today on a 60mph stretch of the M4 where these wretched things are being put in car completely died a head gasket on the inside live lane but fortunately 100 yards before a coned off section with a large move right arrow .So they have cameras everywhere but it still took recovery 20 mins to arrive whilst I positioned myself behind the crash barrier .You could see the number of motorists who only cut into lane 2 at the last moment .It was only a matter of time before I would have been rear ended
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Imagine you had been in Lane 4... what would you have done?

Now imagine you had been on a "conventional" motorway, in Lane 3 or 4 - there is no way you would have reached a hard shoulder, and no matrix signs to close the lane......
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by marconaf »

Why wouldnt you be able to reach the HS from lane 3/4 even with total loss of power? I have, wasnt particularly difficult even in moderatly busy conditions, but clearly no way I could have gone on for half a mile plus.

Not only was it safe, but everyone else was minimally impacted. Seems like a sensible solution really, which is why we invented them in the first place.


Fortunately the OP effectively did sort of have a HS due to coning off immediately ahead of them.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 17:38 Imagine you had been in Lane 4... what would you have done?

Now imagine you had been on a "conventional" motorway, in Lane 3 or 4 - there is no way you would have reached a hard shoulder, and no matrix signs to close the lane......
I've had complete engine failure (snapped cambelt) in lane 3 of a busy motorway - I had to bully my way across to the hard shoulder but could have coasted easily in light traffic.
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Re: breaking down on smart motorways

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millionmiledriver wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 17:25So they have cameras everywhere but it still took recovery 20 mins to arrive whilst I positioned myself behind the crash barrier .
I'm sorry to hear this happened to you, but I'm a bit confused by this statement. The cameras aren't there to automatically call up a recovery truck if you stop, so what do the cameras have to do with the recovery time? Have I missed something?
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