The future of smart motorways

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
DB617
Member
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 13:46

FosseWay wrote:
We can do our best to mitigate stupidity but completely redesigning or forbidding the activity doesn't generally fall into the area of reasonable mitigations for stupidity.
Someone please remind children's organisations like the cadet forces of this... Until the year I left one of the key commander's intents of the Corps was "total safety 2020"... Spot the problem... It just results in absolutely nothing being done as nothing is totally safe.

User avatar
Debaser
Member
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 16:57

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Debaser » Tue Mar 09, 2021 13:59

Bomag wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:54
They have rigidly applied the principle of GALE in GD04/GG104 without any real understanding on managing risk to high risk subsets of groups. The 'public' generally don't understand it and those that do don't agree this Spartan approach to risk management is acceptable.
Shouldn't that be encapsulated in the Safety Plan, etc.?

Paul7755
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:59

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Paul7755 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 20:30

Seem to be new TV ads down in Hampshire tonight, basically about using refuges on smart motorways. “Go left” to the tune of “Go West”... Is anyone else suddenly seeing them?

Paul

WHBM
Member
Posts: 8190
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by WHBM » Wed Mar 10, 2021 20:41

DB617 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 13:46
Someone please remind children's organisations like the cadet forces of this... Until the year I left one of the key commander's intents of the Corps was "total safety 2020"... Spot the problem... It just results in absolutely nothing being done as nothing is totally safe.
The largest civil engineering and roads construction contractor, Balfour Beatty, has likewise their "Zero Harm" tagline. You must have seen them around. Some members here possibly work for them. It doesn't stop them getting on with jobs, sensibly - among other things, they do maintenance work, at height, on 440 kva electricity transmission networks, on live railways - and on live motorways.

https://www.balfourbeatty.com/health-an ... den-rules/

Worcestershire Wolf
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 21:45
Location: Kidderminster

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Worcestershire Wolf » Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:07

Paul7755 wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 20:30
Seem to be new TV ads down in Hampshire tonight, basically about using refuges on smart motorways. “Go left” to the tune of “Go West”... Is anyone else suddenly seeing them?

Paul
Yes, seen them on Sky Channels today, also heard them on the radio, seems as though this is going to be a major ad campaign.

WHBM
Member
Posts: 8190
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by WHBM » Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:15

Worcestershire Wolf wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:07
Yes, seen them on Sky Channels today, also heard them on the radio, seems as though this is going to be a major ad campaign.
The media ad salesmen have clearly been banging on the DfT's door. If there's going to be any additional spending on Smart Motorways, they want as big a share of it as they can.

mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by mikehindsonevans » Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:39

Paul7755 wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 20:30
Seem to be new TV ads down in Hampshire tonight, basically about using refuges on smart motorways. “Go left” to the tune of “Go West”... Is anyone else suddenly seeing them?

Paul
I am briefly breaking my moratorium on this topic. Yes, I saw the advert, with someone dressed as an insect pointing left alongside one pointing right! What was the point? I mean this question seriously.

Dropping off again.
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 8486
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by owen b » Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:51

mikehindsonevans wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:39
Paul7755 wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 20:30
Seem to be new TV ads down in Hampshire tonight, basically about using refuges on smart motorways. “Go left” to the tune of “Go West”... Is anyone else suddenly seeing them?

Paul
I am briefly breaking my moratorium on this topic. Yes, I saw the advert, with someone dressed as an insect pointing left alongside one pointing right! What was the point? I mean this question seriously.

Dropping off again.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/go-l ... y-campaign
"today Highways England is setting out what drivers should do if they encounter problems with their vehicle – go left. The campaign is being supported by partners across the recovery industry and independent road safety campaigner Meera Naran.
Set to the tune of the Pet Shop Boys’ hit version of the ‘Go West’ song, the advert delivers a clear, single-minded message – go left. Testing with focus groups found that the distinctive characters, music and humour made the important message very memorable and people will remember what to do in the event of an emergency."
Owen

Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3035
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Conekicker » Wed Mar 10, 2021 22:00

Well that should nicely quash the corporate manslaughter chatter then.

Riiiiight.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.

Bendo
Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 02:52
Location: Liverpool

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bendo » Wed Mar 10, 2021 22:42

Indeed. The advertising campaign they should be running is one that tells people that if they do have to stop in a live lane, there is a good chance that the lane won't be closed for 20+ minutes.

That just might make people realise that they need to be out and over the barrier to as soon as the vehicle stops.

Of course delivering that important message without appearing incompetent isn't possible so splurge the budget on the current nonsense instead.

XC70
Member
Posts: 583
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 23:22

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by XC70 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:55

What about the following:-

An explanation from HE that Smart Motorways do the following:-

- reduce congestion
- increase capacity
- decrease safety

To the tune of "2 out of 3 ain't bad by Meatloaf"?

User avatar
traffic-light-man
Member
Posts: 4291
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 18:45
Location: Liverpool, UK

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by traffic-light-man » Fri Mar 12, 2021 19:43

Bendo wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 22:42
Indeed. The advertising campaign they should be running is one that tells people that if they do have to stop in a live lane, there is a good chance that the lane won't be closed for 20+ minutes.

That just might make people realise that they need to be out and over the barrier to as soon as the vehicle stops.

Of course delivering that important message without appearing incompetent isn't possible so splurge the budget on the current nonsense instead.
I appreciate that not being in the stationary vehicle is the ideal scenario (not that any of it is ideal, of course), but I can see why the HE aren't advising people to try and cross the live carriageway between their vehicle and the verges...

People would be trying to cross from, for instance, lane three to the nearside verge. At least if they have 'gone left' as far as they can, they're in a better position to get out the vehicle should they decide to do so.
Simon :driving:

darkcape
Social Media Admin
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 14:54

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by darkcape » Sat Mar 13, 2021 07:43

Last night on the A46 I passed a broken-down car in lane 1, being fended off by a local police patrol car. An AA van was also in attendance so the broken down vehicle had been there for some time. Looking forwards to the media screaming for SVD, hard shoulders & street lighting on the A46 too.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

SteveA30
Member
Posts: 5321
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset
Contact:

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by SteveA30 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:59

A road that never had a hard shoulder is a different issue. Taking away an existing safety refuge is a whole other thing. Quoting stats comparing DUMB against standard motorways doesn't alter the fact that it is made less safe by removing the refuge, which ought to be a criminal offence. Also, the stats are meaningless without the cause of each individual accident being recorded. In the case of DUMB it must be rear end shunts in almost every case, where the vehicle hasn't actually crashed.

The cynicism of those in Gov who tried to come up with a form of words that spelt SMART is despicable. Same with NICE where health is concerned.
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
https://roadhog.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/

User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 5329
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Big L » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:57

SteveA30 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:59
....Quoting stats comparing DUMB against standard motorways doesn't alter the fact that it is made less safe .... Also, the stats are meaningless without the cause of each individual accident being recorded....
You’re happy to accept stats that make you think smart motorways are dangerous, but willingly discard stats that show anything else as meaningless?
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
EpicChef
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by EpicChef » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:58

SteveA30 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:59
A road that never had a hard shoulder is a different issue. Taking away an existing safety refuge is a whole other thing. Quoting stats comparing DUMB against standard motorways doesn't alter the fact that it is made less safe by removing the refuge, which ought to be a criminal offence. Also, the stats are meaningless without the cause of each individual accident being recorded. In the case of DUMB it must be rear end shunts in almost every case, where the vehicle hasn't actually crashed.

The cynicism of those in Gov who tried to come up with a form of words that spelt SMART is despicable. Same with NICE where health is concerned.
OK - if SMART is an acronym, what does it even stand for?
Big L wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:57
You’re happy to accept stats that make you think smart motorways are dangerous, but willingly discard stats that show anything else as meaningless?
This.
Smart motorways are like asbestos: they're the best option until suddenly they're not.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Chris5156
Member
Posts: 14625
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 20:24

SteveA30 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:59
The cynicism of those in Gov who tried to come up with a form of words that spelt SMART is despicable.
It doesn't stand for anything, it's literally just the word "smart". It was chosen to mirror the use of that word in the names of internet-enabled domestic technology like smart phones, smart speakers, etc etc.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30977
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 20:42

The media hysteria has removed any potential for sensible discussion on the topic.

I don't like smart motorways as a concept, I think the much larger loss from removing hard shoulders will be felt in future maintenance when lanes and entire carriageways must be closed because you can't shunt traffic over onto that hard shoulder past your site. Future roadworks will cause much more delays and economic impact; to the point I expect corners will be cut to avoid adverse publicity because that's how HE operates.

I'd like to know if those arguing that "hard shoulders are safe because I say they are" are presumably the same sorts that think driving at 90 is safe because they're self appointed experts who actually understand very little about motorway design but have through sheer good luck never had a crash as a result of their arrogance.

If I had any kind of manageable vehicle fault I would be getting off the motorway straight away and ditching on a grass verge on the nearest all purpose road where traffic speeds are lower and people don't have this ridiculous belief that they are super safe so drive with a bit more consideration.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

SteveA30
Member
Posts: 5321
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset
Contact:

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by SteveA30 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:18

The only way to find out if Smart is safer or not is by knowing the exact cause of each incident on both Smart and normal motorways but, AFAIK, that factor isn't recorded. That is the only way of settling the discussion really. Otherwise, it is just opinions. I would also like to know how many accidents on all roads have been caused by distraction from phones and other gadgets but, I guess that info is also not available.
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
https://roadhog.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/

User avatar
Debaser
Member
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 16:57

Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Debaser » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:21

SteveA30 wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:18
The only way to find out if Smart is safer or not is by knowing the exact cause of each incident on both Smart and normal motorways but, AFAIK, that factor isn't recorded. That is the only way of settling the discussion really. Otherwise, it is just opinions. I would also like to know how many accidents on all roads have been caused by distraction from phones and other gadgets but, I guess that info is also not available.
Collision causation factors (and the narrative describing the collision) are collected as part of the STATS19 record of the crash details, see Annex 4 of the first linked document. They are caveated insofar as they are recorded at the roadside in the aftermath of the crash and not necessarily by a trained traffic officer, but still they are what we have. Distraction from 'phones is one of the causation factors recorded.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 0-2011.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... ry-factors

Post Reply