The future of smart motorways

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the cheesecake man
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by the cheesecake man »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 14:39 In highway design circles, WSP are usually seen as blue sky pipe-dreamers. WSP basically saying "any vehicle older than brand new using tech that doesn't exist yet to be banned from motorways"?
London Underground now use in-cab signalling rather than physical signals on some lines so the technology does exist, but it's far too early to contemplate using it on roads for loads of obvious reasons. :no: It sounds like doing something new just to show off how new you're being. :thumbsdown:
jnty
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Helvellyn wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:15
jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:44
EpicChef wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:16

This would be foolish - because what if the technology fails? E.G. a device that you stick on to the windshield runs out of battery?
It the past we might have said having car-only 70mph roads is foolish - because what if the technology fails eg. the car you're driving runs out of petrol or breaks down?

Clearly you don't rely on the technology until it reaches a certain level of reliability.

There's a difference between a hillwalker relying on a half-charged smartphone to guide them off a dark mountain and a fighter jet pilot relying on their hardened and redundant navigation system to stop them crashing into one. You'd imagine a 'post-signs' system in cars might fall somewhere in between these two extremes.
On the other hand it (the signs, not the fighter jet navigation system) is yet another example of ludicrous technological changes to do a job that works perfectly well with something far, far simpler. And such changes, no matter what justifications given for them (and don't pretend that I'm ignorant of them, I just don't find that makes them any less ludicrous) are always ridiculous. I'd pity the sort of people who want to live in the sort of world where such things are regarded as the norm, sensible, and great, if they hadn't already made such a joke of the real world.
Signing (and controlling) the entire road system may be simple for the user but is complex and costly to actually do, especially on motorways - there's countless threads on here testifying to the fact that it's often done badly or completely wrong. In fact, it's not even that simple for the user when done 'right' in most cases as the vast popularity of satnav systems demonstrates! So I can certainly understand why it's being pursued.

As pointed out, in-cab signalling is a 'thing' on trains and in many ways that's much harder to do as safety standards on the rail system are significantly more stringent than they are on roads. The hard part is clearly getting the tech into lots of cars you don't own or maintain, but this is why it's important to start developing workable standards ASAP.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by WHBM »

Last week I rented a Mercedes which had some form of display of the road speed limit on the dashboard. I don't know if it was from GPS or roadside sign recognition.

What we noticed was on any journey it never cut in until about 30 minutesn into the journey, when it suddenly sprang into action, always when on a main road. It also seemed to lag significantly with reality when it changed. It seemed little more than a silly gimmick - just like the non-intuitive way of putting the handbrake on and off (if you think I'm just against technology, Tesla have got this intuitiveness completely cracked and useful).
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:58 Signing (and controlling) the entire road system may be simple for the user but is complex and costly to actually do, especially on motorways - there's countless threads on here testifying to the fact that it's often done badly or completely wrong. In fact, it's not even that simple for the user when done 'right' in most cases as the vast popularity of satnav systems demonstrates! So I can certainly understand why it's being pursued.

As pointed out, in-cab signalling is a 'thing' on trains and in many ways that's much harder to do as safety standards on the rail system are significantly more stringent than they are on roads. The hard part is clearly getting the tech into lots of cars you don't own or maintain, but this is why it's important to start developing workable standards ASAP.
Like I said I know what the reasons things head off in that direction are, and that does not stop my finding it all completely ridiculous and quite frankly yet another small part of the sort of world I don't want to live in; I said it in the post you replied to even and thus I'm afraid I tend to get rather irritated when people then go on try to explain said reasons, under the apparent assumption that I'd think this nonsense is great if I knew the reasons, and that because I think it's nonsense I don't know the reasons.

I've frequently found the idea of piling lots of technology in to things that already broadly work well enough, well, I'd go as far as to say offensive, and this is no exception.
WHBM wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 13:10 (if you think I'm just against technology, Tesla have got this intuitiveness completely cracked and useful).
Whereas I'll happily admit to being against technology in situations where I regard the lower tech version as perfectly sufficient.
Micro The Maniac
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:44 Clearly you don't rely on the technology until it reaches a certain level of reliability.
Cough, Tesla, cough, cough...
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by multiraider2 »

WHBM wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 13:10 Last week I rented a Mercedes which had some form of display of the road speed limit on the dashboard. I don't know if it was from GPS or roadside sign recognition.

What we noticed was on any journey it never cut in until about 30 minutesn into the journey, when it suddenly sprang into action, always when on a main road. It also seemed to lag significantly with reality when it changed. It seemed little more than a silly gimmick - just like the non-intuitive way of putting the handbrake on and off (if you think I'm just against technology, Tesla have got this intuitiveness completely cracked and useful).
My '69 plate Ford Focus is reading the speed limit signs and displaying them in a roundell on the dashboard. It goes blank when passing a NSL sign. I thought that technology had been in for a few years. It does change as soon as I reach the signs, but it's not always correct. There's a lot of the LB of Croydon and other London Boroughs that are exclusively 20mph now except on the main roads. It's sometimes reading those A roads as 20mph. Otherwise it seems fairly accurate including at roadworks temporary limits and motorway variable speed limits. I see lots of drivers on A roads now doing 19-20 mph indicated in town and I wonder if they are looking at their in-car display rather than the road signs?
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

Helvellyn wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 13:43 I've frequently found the idea of piling lots of technology in to things that already broadly work well enough, well, I'd go as far as to say offensive, and this is no exception.
What's "well enough" though? If we'd said that about cars in the 60s they'd still be deathtraps and we wouldn't have seatbelts, crumple zones, ABS, ESC, ECU, TPMS and all the other buzzwords we often ignore but which silently make our cars significantly more safe, efficient and pleasant than they were in the past (but were subject to no end of moaning at the time of their introduction). Today, the British road system costs £10bn and injures 150,000 people a year - surely, in principle, there's got to be plenty of technological advancements left to drive both those figures down?
multiraider2 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 13:56 My '69 plate Ford Focus is reading the speed limit signs and displaying them in a roundell on the dashboard. It goes blank when passing a NSL sign. I thought that technology had been in for a few years. It does change as soon as I reach the signs, but it's not always correct. There's a lot of the LB of Croydon and other London Boroughs that are exclusively 20mph now except on the main roads. It's sometimes reading those A roads as 20mph. Otherwise it seems fairly accurate including at roadworks temporary limits and motorway variable speed limits. I see lots of drivers on A roads now doing 19-20 mph indicated in town and I wonder if they are looking at their in-car display rather than the road signs?
This is an example of a technology which is moving on the right lines but not quite there yet. Roads authorities have surely for many years kept electronic records of speed limits on roads they manage. Surely it's time to validate and standardise these records, turn them into the canonical legal record of active speed limits and publish them periodically directly to vehicles, rather than relying on seriously dodgy computer vision tech which is foiled by the thousands of edge cases on the roads today?
Last edited by jnty on Thu Nov 04, 2021 15:59, edited 1 time in total.
Phil
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Big L wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 06:36
thomas417 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 23:38 ....Fundamentally smart motorways have not been brought in to increase safety or to better control traffic, but to increase capacity on the cheap. Cost is their sole reason for existence.

We now are just finding out that going for the cheapest option has its shortcomings and it will now cost to fix the mess they have created.
Smart motorway conversion isn't cheap, and doing nothing would have been cheaper.
Doing 'Nothing' is rarely acceptable to the voting public who expect the Government to actually do stuff!

Within the context of increasing road capacity, a Smart Motorway IS A LOT CHEAPER TO BUILD than widening it properly - which includes not only land purchase but in the post Twyford Down climate lengthy drawn out public enquires and multiple legal challenges.

A side benefit of needing no additional powers is that its possible to convert reasonably long lengths of motorway to the 'Smart' configuration within a typical 5 year Parliamentary term thus allowing Politicians to reap the electoral benefits rather than those fall on those in Government next time around.

Yes its pathetic, short term, money obsessed thinking - but as a nation those are the attitudes the majority of British seem to have taken to their hearts over the past 40 years or so and as such why anyone is still surprised at the Governments actions in pandering to that thinking is beyond me.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 15:43 Today, the British road system costs £10bn and injures 150,000 people a year
You are a bit high in your claim of 150,000.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... eport-2020
In 2020:
* 115,584 casualties of all severities
* an estimated 23,529 killed or seriously injured
* an estimated 1,460 reported road deaths
This means:
  • 1,460 killed
  • 22,069 seriously injured
  • 92,055 non-serious injuries
jnty
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 14:02
jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 15:43 Today, the British road system costs £10bn and injures 150,000 people a year
You are a bit high in your claim of 150,000.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... eport-2020
In 2020:
* 115,584 casualties of all severities
* an estimated 23,529 killed or seriously injured
* an estimated 1,460 reported road deaths
This means:
  • 1,460 killed
  • 22,069 seriously injured
  • 92,055 non-serious injuries
I was using the 2019 figure - I seem to remember some kind of big event in 2020 that might have thrown the stats off...

Either way it doesn't really matter - the point is there's significant room for improvement in all sorts of ways.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by darkcape »

HE now hitting the brakes on Smart Motorways schemes which is going to be a great confidence to an industry reeling from last week's HS2/NPR cancellations...

National Highways halts first Smart Motorway job
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bryn666 »

darkcape wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 22:45 HE now hitting the brakes on Smart Motorways schemes which is going to be a great confidence to an industry reeling from last week's HS2/NPR cancellations...

National Highways halts first Smart Motorway job
It was always a brave highways manager that suggested widening, even as a smart motorway, the M3 through Tywford Down...
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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darkcape wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 22:45 HE now hitting the brakes on Smart Motorways schemes which is going to be a great confidence to an industry reeling from last week's HS2/NPR cancellations...

National Highways halts first Smart Motorway job
So some of the money allocated for these schemes over the next 5 years can be spent on getting a concrete barrier down the central reserve for them, as the flows on those sections already justify the barrier anyway. Winner?

The balance of the cash could usefully be spent elsewhere on the network installing a more modern VMS system, perhaps - who knows - in preparation for the time when controlled motorways are flavour of the month. Or, far more likely, the dosh will rapidly find it's way back to the Treasury to aid in their cuts.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Conekicker wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 23:33
darkcape wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 22:45 HE now hitting the brakes on Smart Motorways schemes which is going to be a great confidence to an industry reeling from last week's HS2/NPR cancellations...

National Highways halts first Smart Motorway job
So some of the money allocated for these schemes over the next 5 years can be spent on getting a concrete barrier down the central reserve for them, as the flows on those sections already justify the barrier anyway. Winner?

The balance of the cash could usefully be spent elsewhere on the network installing a more modern VMS system, perhaps - who knows - in preparation for the time when controlled motorways are flavour of the month. Or, far more likely, the dosh will rapidly find it's way back to the Treasury to aid in their cuts.
Unfortunately it is the central reserve concrete barrier works as the first phase of the M3 ALR that have been postponed, so not even that is proceeding at the moment.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by thomas417 »

Looks like sanity has prevailed
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

thomas417 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 23:38 On the A14 and pretty much every major dual carriageway there is space to pull out of the road onto the verge, even if there is no dedicated hard shoulder.
On some of it but that is far from reality for much of the road, At random consider.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.98922 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.02592 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.13693 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.25099 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.23640 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.33602 ... 8192?hl=en

Dont bother looking for refuges or SOS phones , you wont find em.

Then there is a road I know like the back of my hand, the A1 - no hard shoulder , almost no VMS, and flat junctions !
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.86421 ... 8192?hl=en

This is positively High Quality compared to parts of the A34 or A42 although in that case they have at least added some refuges it still feels to me like driving through a tunnel.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

Sounds more like a scheme to cut spending to me, they have announced a 5 year delay to gather evidence, in the meantime the traffic will keep growing as will the delays. The nett result could well be an increase in deaths and serious injuries as traffic switches to A roads with no smarts, no hard shoulders, very few matrix signs and of course higher rates of ksi RTA's.

Never underestimate the law of unintended consequences.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

For about the fifth time I find myself hoping they will go right back through the design and find the places where things went wrong, such as have been discussed in this thread - confusing mixes of HSR, TJR and ALR across the country, misuse of AMIs, budget cutting ERAs, SVD that doesn't work because the blue party are involved in procurement, and cutting RCC staffing to the bone since the idea was conceived. We shall see...

Does this mean that the DHSR sections are now on hold too?
Last edited by DB617 on Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 15:43 This is an example of a technology which is moving on the right lines but not quite there yet. Roads authorities have surely for many years kept electronic records of speed limits on roads they manage. Surely it's time to validate and standardise these records, turn them into the canonical legal record of active speed limits and publish them periodically directly to vehicles, rather than relying on seriously dodgy computer vision tech which is foiled by the thousands of edge cases on the roads today?
Well no, apart from anything else the speed limits on council controlled roads may go back decades and the only formal records will be buried in a paper archive somewhere in the basement and then of course 30 mph zones are mostly not signed or recorded at all, you just look for the existence and spacing of lamp posts. And of course once you leave a built up area the default is the National Speed Limit.

See if you can see a speed limit sign on this road outside the villages and towns. PS its unclassified so doesnt even have a number.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.36576 ... 6656?hl=en

Lots of luck getting all those local authorities to update such a database - you will need it. They have neither the money or the will to do so. There are an awful lot f such roads in North Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:45
jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 15:43 This is an example of a technology which is moving on the right lines but not quite there yet. Roads authorities have surely for many years kept electronic records of speed limits on roads they manage. Surely it's time to validate and standardise these records, turn them into the canonical legal record of active speed limits and publish them periodically directly to vehicles, rather than relying on seriously dodgy computer vision tech which is foiled by the thousands of edge cases on the roads today?
Well no, apart from anything else the speed limits on council controlled roads may go back decades and the only formal records will be buried in a paper archive somewhere in the basement and then of course 30 mph zones are mostly not signed or recorded at all, you just look for the existence and spacing of lamp posts. And of course once you leave a built up area the default is the National Speed Limit.

See if you can see a speed limit sign on this road outside the villages and towns. PS its unclassified so doesnt even have a number.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.36576 ... 6656?hl=en

Lots of luck getting all those local authorities to update such a database - you will need it. They have neither the money or the will to do so. There are an awful lot f such roads in North Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland.
Surely the existence of a national speed limit proves that establishing a database is easier rather than harder? In many cases these databases have already been established by authorities (whether publicly available or not) or by a commercial operation supplying data to satnavs. The situation with updates is even simpler - if the database is the source of legal truth (as is already the case for eg. Edinburgh Council's parking TROs) then the councils are forced to update the database whenever they update the speed limit, just as they'd have to do with TROs and paper records previously.
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