The future of smart motorways

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Hdeng16
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Hdeng16 »

I mentioned this on one of the many upgrade threads - I think smart motorways (as a ‘brand) are as good as dead.
Micro The Maniac
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

I think the Smart Motorway brand has been dead for awhile, officially... they've been Digital Motorways for a fair bit...
Bendo
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bendo »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 13:55
Conekicker wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:48
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 13:10 On my Smart Motorway Speed Awareness Course, it was stated categorically by the instructors that a blank sign means National Speed Limit and all other restrictions are ended.
That's generally correct, with the rider that the sign could be faulty and not displaying a message at all.
Given that any letter in the post includes a photo of the MS4, is a blank MS4 likely to be sufficient evidence for a NIP :confused:
I'm not sure that's the case anymore. New installs seem to have done away with the sign facing camera e.g. this one on the M62 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fpxnp38yc6GLSX2J6 the new ones on the M6 also seem to be the same.

I managed to get this one to flash M5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iDK8AVrYXqkDZCgu8 doing GPS 77 on Christmas day with no limit indicated. It's a recent HADECS 3 upgrade and no evident evidential camera either. Be interesting to see if anything comes in the post, have gone the same speed past it many times before.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bendo wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:02
Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 13:55
Conekicker wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:48 That's generally correct, with the rider that the sign could be faulty and not displaying a message at all.
Given that any letter in the post includes a photo of the MS4, is a blank MS4 likely to be sufficient evidence for a NIP :confused:
I'm not sure that's the case anymore. New installs seem to have done away with the sign facing camera e.g. this one on the M62 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fpxnp38yc6GLSX2J6 the new ones on the M6 also seem to be the same.

I managed to get this one to flash M5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iDK8AVrYXqkDZCgu8 doing GPS 77 on Christmas day with no limit indicated. It's a recent HADECS 3 upgrade and no evident evidential camera either. Be interesting to see if anything comes in the post, have gone the same speed past it many times before.
There are cameras for both of those, a little way back. In the latter case its on a post that bends over the carriageway. Best keep an eye on the post.
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Micro The Maniac
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bendo wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:02 I'm not sure that's the case anymore. New installs seem to have done away with the sign facing camera
"M'lud... the case for the prosecution is solely a claim that my client was exceeding the posted speed limit - for which they present no evidence, and therefore have not proven their case"
Bendo
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bendo »

Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:48
Bendo wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:02
Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 13:55
Given that any letter in the post includes a photo of the MS4, is a blank MS4 likely to be sufficient evidence for a NIP :confused:
I'm not sure that's the case anymore. New installs seem to have done away with the sign facing camera e.g. this one on the M62 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fpxnp38yc6GLSX2J6 the new ones on the M6 also seem to be the same.

I managed to get this one to flash M5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iDK8AVrYXqkDZCgu8 doing GPS 77 on Christmas day with no limit indicated. It's a recent HADECS 3 upgrade and no evident evidential camera either. Be interesting to see if anything comes in the post, have gone the same speed past it many times before.
There are cameras for both of those, a little way back. In the latter case its on a post that bends over the carriageway. Best keep an eye on the post.
Ah, a lot further back than they used to be and look a lot more like cctv cameras than the little camera they used to use.

If it comes it comes can't imagine it will though.
DB617
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

Has anyone else passed the HADECS setup on the M4 eastbound between Almondsbury and the M32? It seems to flash whenever it feels like. I've been flashed twice now - once at 70 on blank speed limit and once at 60 in a 60 limit - no NIPs forthcoming for over two months. I assume it's busted, but I'm also rather surprised the NHTOs (that's quite the clumsy acronym now) haven't reported it and had it switched off. It's quite distracting when travelling the other direction too - it seems to flash almost constantly.
Phil
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Phil »

Bendo wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:02
Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 13:55
Conekicker wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:48 That's generally correct, with the rider that the sign could be faulty and not displaying a message at all.
Given that any letter in the post includes a photo of the MS4, is a blank MS4 likely to be sufficient evidence for a NIP :confused:
I'm not sure that's the case anymore. New installs seem to have done away with the sign facing camera e.g. this one on the M62 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fpxnp38yc6GLSX2J6 the new ones on the M6 also seem to be the same.

I managed to get this one to flash M5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iDK8AVrYXqkDZCgu8 doing GPS 77 on Christmas day with no limit indicated. It's a recent HADECS 3 upgrade and no evident evidential camera either. Be interesting to see if anything comes in the post, have gone the same speed past it many times before.
When the VSL signs are blank the cameras on recent 'Smart / Digital Motorway' schemes seem set to go off as soon as they detect you going above 70mph. This is entirely logical as the way the law is written going at 70.00000......00001mph is still a criminal offence (and thats why car spedos must ALWAYS overestimate your speed to ensure the car maker cannot be guilty of entrapment).

However if the individual police force in charge of speed enforcement still choses (note they don't have to) operates the 10% +2mph as the threshold below which nothing will be done - then the fact you have been flashed will not result in a NIP being issued.

The M23 ALR scheme has cameras that will fash you going above 70mph when no limit is shown - yet the M25 ones for the junc 5 - 7 scheme are of the earlier configuration and I believe they don't go off unless you are doing stupid speeds (IIRC around 95mph) in the same situation.
Bendo
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bendo »

Phil wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 23:06
Bendo wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:02
Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 13:55
Given that any letter in the post includes a photo of the MS4, is a blank MS4 likely to be sufficient evidence for a NIP :confused:
I'm not sure that's the case anymore. New installs seem to have done away with the sign facing camera e.g. this one on the M62 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fpxnp38yc6GLSX2J6 the new ones on the M6 also seem to be the same.

I managed to get this one to flash M5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iDK8AVrYXqkDZCgu8 doing GPS 77 on Christmas day with no limit indicated. It's a recent HADECS 3 upgrade and no evident evidential camera either. Be interesting to see if anything comes in the post, have gone the same speed past it many times before.
When the VSL signs are blank the cameras on recent 'Smart / Digital Motorway' schemes seem set to go off as soon as they detect you going above 70mph. This is entirely logical as the way the law is written going at 70.00000......00001mph is still a criminal offence (and thats why car spedos must ALWAYS overestimate your speed to ensure the car maker cannot be guilty of entrapment).
First time I've ever knowingly triggered one despite always doing GPS 77 past them between Liverpool and Torbay on regular basis over the past 10 years.

There is no force in England and Wales that doesn't currently (unless they have changed very recently) apply NPCC guidelines so not anticipating anything turning up but if it does will be interesting to see what speed it shows. Dashcam agreed with Waze that it was 77.
thomas417
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by thomas417 »

Seems sanity has prevailed and the rollout of smart motorways has been suspended until at least 2025 alongside safety improvements for existing sections according to the front page of tomorrow's Guardian, I can't find the article on their site yet.

https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/wp-co ... dian-8.jpg
brummie_rob
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by brummie_rob »

No articles online yet, possible embargo of the story. I really hope that the conversion of hard shoulder running is still to take place though and any schemes in construction currently are finished.
BenMcr
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by BenMcr »

brummie_rob wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 23:17 No articles online yet, possible embargo of the story. I really hope that the conversion of hard shoulder running is still to take place though and any schemes in construction currently are finished.
There's now an article on the Manchester Evening News website here

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... t-22720509

And Guardian article is here https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... y-concerns
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A303Chris
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by A303Chris »

Here is the official DfT Press Release issued at 12.15am this morning, which are the words from the actual source.

I personally have no problem with them and where is the anger at 25 miles of A14 which has been built as a 3ALR motorway with all the infrastructure of a smart motorway, the only difference being green signs.

As someone who does a lot of driving, when the argument of safety comes up, I revert to the M23/A23 between the M25 and A27. The first 10 miles 4ALR smart motorway with all the technology, warning of incidents, then the first eight miles of the A23, which is now basically a 3ALR motorway with out any of the technology. I have had seen more near misses on that with broken down vehicles, as there are no warning systems then on the M23.

Also while the tragedy on the M1, occurred on a smart motorway and the widow is obviously campaigning for them to go, one should look into the facts of the accident which her partner was unfortunately killed, not the emotive issues. Her partner hit someone in the rear as they were slowing down to exit at J33, then they got out of there cars and stood behind the cars on the live lane to exchange details. Regardless if there is a HS or not the highway code says get off the carriageway and go on to the verge and stand a safe distance behind. I know of cases where people have been killed on the HS as well. So while the fatal accident occurred on a smart motorway, the fatal consequences were not 100% down to the smart motorway
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KeithW
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

A303Chris wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:45 Here is the official DfT Press Release issued at 12.15am this morning, which are the words from the actual source.

I personally have no problem with them and where is the anger at 25 miles of A14 which has been built as a 3ALR motorway with all the infrastructure of a smart motorway, the only difference being green signs.

As someone who does a lot of driving, when the argument of safety comes up, I revert to the M23/A23 between the M25 and A27. The first 10 miles 4ALR smart motorway with all the technology, warning of incidents, then the first eight miles of the A23, which is now basically a 3ALR motorway with out any of the technology. I have had seen more near misses on that with broken down vehicles, as there are no warning systems then on the M23.

Also while the tragedy on the M1, occurred on a smart motorway and the widow is obviously campaigning for them to go, one should look into the facts of the accident which her partner was unfortunately killed, not the emotive issues. Her partner hit someone in the rear as they were slowing down to exit at J33, then they got out of there cars and stood behind the cars on the live lane to exchange details. Regardless if there is a HS or not the highway code says get off the carriageway and go on to the verge and stand a safe distance behind. I know of cases where people have been killed on the HS as well. So while the fatal accident occurred on a smart motorway, the fatal consequences were not 100% down to the smart motorway
Indeed, I really wonder about the mindset of such people. For the record I feel MUCH safer on a modern managed motorway than a traditional motorway such as the A1(M) Darlington/Durham Bypass which have a hard shoulder but poor barriers and very few cameras or VMS signs. To be fair some upgrades are now happening. The bottom line though is that many strategic roads such as the A1, A19, A34, A2 etc have no smarts, no hard shoulder and little or no CCTV coverage. Usually the first anyone knows about an incident is a member of the public making a telephone call. The only way I can find out what is happening on the roads in the North East is listening to local radio.

As cynical man I have an alternate view to the DfT decision, my suspicion is it amounts to 'Hey Boris we can keep the treasury happy by cutting expenditure on Smart Motorways for the next 5 years.'
Bomag
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bomag »

A303Chris wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:45 Here is the official DfT Press Release issued at 12.15am this morning, which are the words from the actual source.

I personally have no problem with them and where is the anger at 25 miles of A14 which has been built as a 3ALR motorway with all the infrastructure of a smart motorway, the only difference being green signs.
The A14 was built to the AP cross section with full SSD in lane 1 and a full width verge (in addition to EA), except at pinch points. The risk profile is different from ALR where the existing cross section causes more disruption in SSD and there is no 'verge' behind the old hard shoulder.

Give me the A1(M) most days over the M1 ALR, full width lanes and lanes don't switch from side to side.
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Chris5156
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Chris5156 »

I can live with a pause on new schemes starting, road projects get delayed all the time and if the capacity is needed they’ll be back in some form before long, whether as Smart Motorway, conventional widening, experimental hover roads or whatever is flavour of the month when their turn comes round again.

What’s really disappointing here is that seven projects to convert DHSR to ALR have been paused too. That’s the real loss that comes out of this announcement and leaves us stuck with dangerously inconsistent roads (M1 J10-13 is the prime example) that will increase driver confusion and increase the risk of accidents. It means that rather than just deciding to stop installing something of disputed safety, we are also failing to remove something proven to be badly understood and risky. Such a shame.
DB617
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:55 I can live with a pause on new schemes starting, road projects get delayed all the time and if the capacity is needed they’ll be back in some form before long, whether as Smart Motorway, conventional widening, experimental hover roads or whatever is flavour of the month when their turn comes round again.

What’s really disappointing here is that seven projects to convert DHSR to ALR have been paused too. That’s the real loss that comes out of this announcement and leaves us stuck with dangerously inconsistent roads (M1 J10-13 is the prime example) that will increase driver confusion and increase the risk of accidents. It means that rather than just deciding to stop installing something of disputed safety, we are also failing to remove something proven to be badly understood and risky. Such a shame.
This decision does seem overly simplistic, which makes me feel more closely aligned to the cynical budget-conscious view presented above. In a country where people are currently used to everything being in managed decline, allowing it to happen on the motorways can't be viewed by central government as a huge step.

Realigning the budget to prioritise HSR to ALR modernisations, which we pretty much know are going to be an improvement, would be a more sensible use of the money while further work is (ostensibly) done on safety. Cancellation and returning the budget to the Treasury is a very odd choice for a ministry to make.

I also find it galling that by completely screwing up the SVD rollout and botching either the product selection or the engineering, NH have managed to kill smart motorways completely. You must tread very carefully around jumpy civil servants and ministers, and quite plainly they did not. In other words, they had one shot at saving the day and they missed.
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the cheesecake man
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by the cheesecake man »

Everyone also seems to assume that smart motorways and removal of hard shoulders are the same thing. This isn't helpful. It's quite possible to have either without the other (and it has been done). Are the valid safety concerns really about smartification or hard shoulder removal? Why do we need to stop the other?
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jackal
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jackal »

I quite agree with Chris about the biggest loss being the DHS conversions. A consolation is that schemes under construction will continue.

Naturally the press will be giving the same blanket coverage to every widow created by the dangerously congested three lane motorways and confusing DHS that will not now be upgraded :pig:
brummie_rob
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by brummie_rob »

As mentioned not converting the DHS to ALR is a disaster really. I know we've had them running for many years but the prospect of ALR through Birmingham is much more comforting than the scheme at the moment where you regularly see people in the closed hard shoulder.
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