The future of smart motorways

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Bryn666
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 18:11
DB617 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 17:15
Conekicker wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 17:13
I was told that such material wasn't in DMRB and also why should we, as a commercial organisation, want our work to last longer? To make a surface last for 15 or 20 years, when we were replacing it roughly every 10 would do us out of business. And that was the end of that suggestion.
Imagine thinking that was business sense. Instead of a rolling program of resurfacing the entire network, the 'businessman' would prefer to see most of it left undone while you repeatedly work on the same section. There can't be that much contractor competition out there that if that one stretch isn't constantly breaking down, your company would be out of business.
Except we were doing, more or less, a rolling programme, resurfacing 3-ish km of motorway one year, then moving on to the next 3-ish km the next year and so on. Eventually we would have gone back to the beginning and started again. At 3km per year, plenty of schemes to keep people employed.
He never made it to Director, as he lived in the shadow of one, but we had a guy who was known by various nicknames, including "Vague", "Teflon", "The Political Weathercock", to name a few. His traffic experience could be summed up entirely as "he drove to work and back".
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fras
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by fras »

DB617 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 18:51
fras wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 17:52 The real question is why the customer, (council or HE) doesn't specify more durable material.

Time to get back to Hot Rolled Asphalt !
Please no. As a resident of Bristol who lives within audible range of the A4174 (constant roaring) please no.
Yeah, I know, it can be a bit noisy, but I suspect it's because it's just worn out where you are. The thing about HRA is it still provides a durable surface even after it is really life expired. This is seen very clearly near me in and around this location: -
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.14110 ... 6656?hl=en
Old Mill Road in Sandbach
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Enceladus
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Enceladus »

Smart motorways are anything but “smart”. I’ve said it here before and I will say it again. The technology to operate them safely to an acceptable standard - using self-drive cars, for example, guided by systems on the motorway - is simply just not there yet.

The horrific deaths outlined in a number of UK news articles in recent weeks on these so-called “Smart” motorways are the price society has to pay for having these alleged traffic “solutions” in place. Do we simply accept the deaths and tragedies as collateral damage resulting from the failings of these measures?

The basic fact is that within the UK, England is becoming over-populated and the transport infrastructure, barring a radical step change in investment, is simply unable to cope with demand. The Covid lockdowns did reduce traffic significantly and the work from home option needs to become a permanent aspect of working. Massive investment is also required in rail including getting HS2 underway - but the basic mantra of endless economic and population growth must be questioned and challenged as it is utterly unsustainable - in terms of social cost, environmental cost and the cost in human lives lost or destroyed.

The UK, and England in particular, also needs a radical change to its long-term strategic spatial planning policy - as 40 years of a deeply unbalanced and ever-widening rift between North and South thanks to unbridled neoliberal economic policies and a “laissez faire” approach including the adoption of low density, sprawling American car-based out of town retail and business centres has clearly not served the country - among the most densely populated in world (21st in the current ranking) with scant available land resources - well in the long-term.

There has been far too much incompetence in patching up the huge cracks in British infrastructure - smart motorways are a perfect example of such flawed and lazy thinking. A quick fix supposed solution driven by politics and the need for fast results.

I would hope that the only future “smart” motorways have would be a lesson to policy makers on how not to upgrade road capacity.
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DB617
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

Perhaps out of scope for this thread, but I wonder if anyone here is familiar in terms of costs with how much, say, light rail or heavy rail expansion would cost per passenger mile compared to the funds that are going to be required to maintain the local and national road networks at a level where they can cope? Is it really prohibitively expensive? Or are we just short on willing Councillors and Ministers and competent Engineers?
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by fras »

Well, we have around 11k route miles of railway, and a few tramway installations, which probably add up to less than 300 miles. But we have around 180k miles of local roads in the UK, and 4300 miles of Strategic Road Network in England.

Railways are more expensive to install than roads, although I suspect the civil engineering costs are comparable, (although tunnelling is not usually used significantly for roads), but roads take up more room. However, the main point I woul make is that back in 1962, the Buchanan Report pointed out that if you removed all through traffic from local roads, there still needed to be huge developments just for the local traffic. That development started but was abandoned in the 70s. However the traffic carried on increasing until we got to our present situation.
Obviously there has been some roadbuilding but not really enough to cater even for off-peak demand.
Railways or roads cannot economically cater for full peak traffic, people just have to get used to crowded trains or clogged roads, IMHO. This, however, should not be used as an excuse to do nothing.
Peter Freeman
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Peter Freeman »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 22:16 You know what, I used to be a supporter of managed motorways but I’m beginning to get more and more skeptical…
I remain in favour of ALR.

In other threads, discussion of new ALR schemes such as M25 J15-16 and M1 J6a-10 has begun. However, whether justified or not, there is now much concern in the public domain. Despite recognising the sensationalist nature of reports such as the Daily Mail's, I think the concern is serious and widespread.

In view of this, I believe NH should self-impose a moratorium on new starts of ALR. To persist with roll-out at the planned rate will give an impression of arrogance. Also, re-work could be required in the event of certain later decisions.

A moratorium would provide respite to sort out SVD and other tech problems, and to get on with remediations already committed (ERA spacing, etc). It might also allow the commotion to settle down. I'm sure there'd be no problem in spending any saved money on other deserving projects.

During the moratorium, there would be time, without haste, to collect more data, and then to calmly consider other possible actions. Many actions have been suggested throughout this thread -
  • Moving Armco barriers back to allow access to informal (grass) safe areas *
    Even-more-closely-spaced ERAs *
    Discontinuous/intermittent hard shoulder provision
    (where practical and low cost)
    Permanent speed limit <NSL *
    Night-time lower speed limit *
    Poor weather lower speed limit
    Lighting
    Improved protocols for lane use and VSL indications *
    Improved protocols for lane closure *
    Red X over lane 1 when traffic is light
    (pseudo dynamic HSR)
    Conversion to an improved DHSR format
    (possibly with red X over HS when it's closed)
    (possibly with re-designed TJR markings)
    Conversion back to conventional hard shoulder format
    (controlled motorway)
    etc.
I favour retaining ALR, but incorporating certain of the above options. My favourites are marked with an asterisk.
Last edited by Peter Freeman on Tue Oct 12, 2021 00:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Peter Freeman »

I've just read another article in 'Highways Magazine' about Smart Motorways. It's focus is on ROI as measured in POPEs for M1 and M6 schemes. It also touches on safety concerns of course, and presents a rather gloomy view.

Interestingly, it quotes RAC as saying they prefer DHS over ALR as the standard, and AA favouring the 'controlled motorway' concept (smart tech but no HS usage). Both opinions based on safety statistics.

It's worth a read. p18 & p20 -
https://edition.pagesuite.com/html5/rea ... 2d99e5fce9
DB617
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

Of course, the thing to remember about the AA and RAC is that it's a bit like listening to the BMJ or GMC on pandemic disease issues. They do present a view, but the job of the politician/civil servant is to balance the views and needs of all stakeholders, against the big nasty problem of the budget. So what the AA and RAC prefer may not be deliverable in any practical sense once facing up against the budget.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Peter Freeman wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:13 During the moratorium, there would be time, without haste, to collect more data, and then to calmly consider other possible actions. Many actions have been suggested throughout this thread -
  1. Moving Armco barriers back to allow access to informal (grass) safe areas *
  2. Even-more-closely-spaced ERAs *
  3. Improved protocols for lane use and VSL indications *
  4. Improved protocols for lane closure *
  5. etc.
DHSR was a mistake... and the mix of DHSR and traditional motorways means you see drivers tootling down the hard shoulder - especially on the M1 and M6 where there is a mix of all types. There should be no return to DHSR.

The four I've highlighted should be considered... especially #1 but equally there should be a "standard" for the spacing of gantries and MS4s. For example, the M23 seems to be very sparse, meaning lane control is sub-optimal.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by ManomayLR »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 14:36 ...there should be a "standard" for the spacing of gantries and MS4s. For example, the M23 seems to be very sparse, meaning lane control is sub-optimal.
The principle should be that a gantry or message sign should be visible wherever you are on the motorway.

Even if you've just passed a message sign, the next one should be close enough that you should be able to see a speed limit and lane control information. So you can see the lane control status at all times.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by thomas417 »

Halt smart motorway projects until safety upgrades are made, say MPs.

The construction of smart motorways should be paused until promised safety improvements have been delivered and there is more evidence to assess the risks, MPs have urged.

https://theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/ ... de-say-mps
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by tom1977 »

thomas417 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 07:11 Halt smart motorway projects until safety upgrades are made, say MPs.

The construction of smart motorways should be paused until promised safety improvements have been delivered and there is more evidence to assess the risks, MPs have urged.

https://theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/ ... de-say-mps
They also say that hard shoulder running should be at set times and not - erm - dynamic. Seems like a messy mixture to me.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by ManomayLR »

thomas417 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 07:11 Halt smart motorway projects until safety upgrades are made, say MPs.

The construction of smart motorways should be paused until promised safety improvements have been delivered and there is more evidence to assess the risks, MPs have urged.

https://theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/ ... de-say-mps
I question what benefit this would bring. ALR schemes have been around since 2013, and so we have seen some of them for way longer than five years. Design standards for ALR haven't changed as much as the DHSR standards did in the early days of managed motorways.

Such a delay would be unnecessary, prolonging congestion and therefore poorer air quality, and there is little chance that any material changes will come of it. Though I am of course concerned about safety issues on managed motorways, I do think an arbitrary delay would do nothing much to solve the issue.

It may cause public debate/interest/controversy to die down while ALR schemes are on hiatus, but that will just spark back up again when they are brought back.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bryn666 »

The only changes that are needed are really simple, just use green arrows and red crosses all the time like other established lane control systems worldwide, and even in the UK.

Had HE not tried to be clever and reinvented the wheel, like they tried with contraflows, to big themselves up as innovators nearly 90% of these problems would never have occurred.
Bryn
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jackal »

There was a similar report from this select committee a few years ago. They even wanted a return to DHS, which shows how disconnected from reality they are.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 09:54 The only changes that are needed are really simple, just use green arrows and red crosses all the time like other established lane control systems worldwide, and even in the UK.
THIS. This this this this this this this THIS!

It's so terribly frustrating because it would have saved all this drama!
And it's so easy because there is a model of AMI that supports green arrows, and the MS4s above can handle the speed limit...
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

EpicChef wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:58
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 09:54 The only changes that are needed are really simple, just use green arrows and red crosses all the time like other established lane control systems worldwide, and even in the UK.
THIS. This this this this this this this THIS!

It's so terribly frustrating because it would have saved all this drama!
And it's so easy because there is a model of AMI that supports green arrows, and the MS4s above can handle the speed limit...
I figure someone early on must have baked this idea into the entire prototype design, because displaying the speed limit above every lane has always been a tremendous waste of space, energy and maintenance costs. Individual lane aspects are clearly gauged towards granular control, and since we don't do granular speed limit control (rightly so), the AMIs should be used exclusively for 'open' or 'closed' lane indications. Even without green arrows we could still approximate a system that worked using white/yellow arrows and red Xs. It's an absolute open goal that's being missed in the race for ever more expensive, complicated and invariably flawed technologies.

The non-provision of green arrows for open lanes has also allowed for the new schemes having much larger intervals between gantries. On the M4 after Reading there are plenty of MS4s but the gantries seem quite far between, and with the bends in the road, the sight lines ahead more often than not don't include AMIs. Perhaps, then, the opportunity for granular permanent lane control has passed us by.
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Bryn666
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bryn666 »

DB617 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 13:59
EpicChef wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:58
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 09:54 The only changes that are needed are really simple, just use green arrows and red crosses all the time like other established lane control systems worldwide, and even in the UK.
THIS. This this this this this this this THIS!

It's so terribly frustrating because it would have saved all this drama!
And it's so easy because there is a model of AMI that supports green arrows, and the MS4s above can handle the speed limit...
I figure someone early on must have baked this idea into the entire prototype design, because displaying the speed limit above every lane has always been a tremendous waste of space, energy and maintenance costs. Individual lane aspects are clearly gauged towards granular control, and since we don't do granular speed limit control (rightly so), the AMIs should be used exclusively for 'open' or 'closed' lane indications. Even without green arrows we could still approximate a system that worked using white/yellow arrows and red Xs. It's an absolute open goal that's being missed in the race for ever more expensive, complicated and invariably flawed technologies.

The non-provision of green arrows for open lanes has also allowed for the new schemes having much larger intervals between gantries. On the M4 after Reading there are plenty of MS4s but the gantries seem quite far between, and with the bends in the road, the sight lines ahead more often than not don't include AMIs. Perhaps, then, the opportunity for granular permanent lane control has passed us by.
MS4s can still show open and closed lanes with mandatory red Xs.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 09:54 The only changes that are needed are really simple, just use green arrows and red crosses all the time like other established lane control systems worldwide, and even in the UK.
I think there is more to it than that... the existing operational issues boil down to responsiveness in the event of a problem. Having more gantries, or green arrows will not change that. Lane control needs to be (virtually) immediate - with severe consequences for anyone passing a red X.

But what is also needed is a way to escape from a live lane in case of emergency - simply removing the nearside barriers (where safe!) is a no-brainer IMHO... we do not need continuous barrier protecting a grass verge that would allow safety in an emergency.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by DB617 »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 14:05
DB617 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 13:59
EpicChef wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:58

THIS. This this this this this this this THIS!

It's so terribly frustrating because it would have saved all this drama!
And it's so easy because there is a model of AMI that supports green arrows, and the MS4s above can handle the speed limit...
I figure someone early on must have baked this idea into the entire prototype design, because displaying the speed limit above every lane has always been a tremendous waste of space, energy and maintenance costs. Individual lane aspects are clearly gauged towards granular control, and since we don't do granular speed limit control (rightly so), the AMIs should be used exclusively for 'open' or 'closed' lane indications. Even without green arrows we could still approximate a system that worked using white/yellow arrows and red Xs. It's an absolute open goal that's being missed in the race for ever more expensive, complicated and invariably flawed technologies.

The non-provision of green arrows for open lanes has also allowed for the new schemes having much larger intervals between gantries. On the M4 after Reading there are plenty of MS4s but the gantries seem quite far between, and with the bends in the road, the sight lines ahead more often than not don't include AMIs. Perhaps, then, the opportunity for granular permanent lane control has passed us by.
MS4s can still show open and closed lanes with mandatory red Xs.
True, but one has to wonder what the point of all the big gantries and the mess and clutter was to improve control, but we've fallen back to a system mostly controlled by modernised versions of the signs we've had for 30 years.
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