The future of smart motorways

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Kaasdrager
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Kaasdrager »

jnty wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:02
KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:45
jnty wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 15:43 This is an example of a technology which is moving on the right lines but not quite there yet. Roads authorities have surely for many years kept electronic records of speed limits on roads they manage. Surely it's time to validate and standardise these records, turn them into the canonical legal record of active speed limits and publish them periodically directly to vehicles, rather than relying on seriously dodgy computer vision tech which is foiled by the thousands of edge cases on the roads today?
Well no, apart from anything else the speed limits on council controlled roads may go back decades and the only formal records will be buried in a paper archive somewhere in the basement and then of course 30 mph zones are mostly not signed or recorded at all, you just look for the existence and spacing of lamp posts. And of course once you leave a built up area the default is the National Speed Limit.

See if you can see a speed limit sign on this road outside the villages and towns. PS its unclassified so doesnt even have a number.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.36576 ... 6656?hl=en

Lots of luck getting all those local authorities to update such a database - you will need it. They have neither the money or the will to do so. There are an awful lot f such roads in North Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland.
Surely the existence of a national speed limit proves that establishing a database is easier rather than harder? In many cases these databases have already been established by authorities (whether publicly available or not) or by a commercial operation supplying data to satnavs. The situation with updates is even simpler - if the database is the source of legal truth (as is already the case for eg. Edinburgh Council's parking TROs) then the councils are forced to update the database whenever they update the speed limit, just as they'd have to do with TROs and paper records previously.
By the looks of it, Edinburgh just uploaded all their TRO PDFs to a website, that doesn't make it a database holding the source of legal truth. And while large cities can probably afford to establish databases like this - as well as provide funds to maintain these on an ongoing basis - I am less certain that smaller councils can.

Regardless, there are always going to be cases with temporary speed limits or a lag in database updates where any system will be behind the legal truths / the reality of a sign placed along the roadside. Cars will need to be able to deal with this in order to really advance to proper self driving, so having some sort of sign recognition system is going to be needed.
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KeithW
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

jnty wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:02 Surely the existence of a national speed limit proves that establishing a database is easier rather than harder? In many cases these databases have already been established by authorities (whether publicly available or not) or by a commercial operation supplying data to satnavs. The situation with updates is even simpler - if the database is the source of legal truth (as is already the case for eg. Edinburgh Council's parking TROs) then the councils are forced to update the database whenever they update the speed limit, just as they'd have to do with TROs and paper records previously.
Well no the NSL covers those roads for which no specific speed limit has been set. There are no specific TRO's in place for those roads. As for the map at best it proves a colour coded map of some of the streets in Edinburgh has been made. Note the coverage is far from complete.

As for Satnavs there are commercial companies that produce that mapping and they deal with the satnav companies on a commercial basis, now the most up to date are systems like Waze where the users can enter corrections but for the most part you would be unwise to depend on speed limits displayed on Satnavs as they can get out of date and of course where you have variable speed limits all bets are off.

Again drill down into the Parking TRO's and what you find are pdf documents NOT a database and the legend specifically states that they are based on Ordnance Survey maps. The give away its not a database is that you can only extract information with the Eyeball Human Mk1.

The enforcement of those maps depends on the existence of the TRO in question.
Here is how you check
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/roads-pave ... ders-new/4
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/roads-pavements/view-comment-traffic-orders-new/4 wrote:
4. Designation of parking places and loading places and application of the 2018 Order thereto.

a) Each area on a road identified in a map tile as a parking place or loading place and, where
applicable, by way of either a map tile label or the map schedule legend, or both, as an
area marked out and signed for the use therein of specified classes of vehicles following
the conditions specified in the 2018 Order in relation to that type of parking place or
loading place, is designated as a parking place or, as the case may be, a loading place.

b) Unless otherwise so identified, a parking place or a loading place shall be bounded on one
side of its length by the edge of the carriageway and be an area marked either by a traffic
sign or by another method of indicating the extent of a parking place or loading place as
specified in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.
c) The provisions of the 2018 Order (other than Articles 3-1 and 7-1) shall apply to an area
designated as a parking place by this Order as if in those provisions any reference to:
(i) a parking place included a reference to an area designated as a parking place by this
Order, and

DRAFT
09/11/2021 TRO/21/16 Page 2 of 2
(ii) a loading p
Clearly the basis of this map is a whole bunch of Traffic Restriction Orders.
jnty
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

Kaasdrager wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:33 By the looks of it, Edinburgh just uploaded all their TRO PDFs to a website, that doesn't make it a database holding the source of legal truth. And while large cities can probably afford to establish databases like this - as well as provide funds to maintain these on an ongoing basis - I am less certain that smaller councils can.
This is the TRO where the maps were made the legal source of truth. When parking TROs are advertised, they now only show the differences between the old and new map tiles (as here.) There are clearly upfront costs involved, but for ongoing use, consulting a map is much cheaper than consulting a lawyer...
Kaasdrager wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:33 Regardless, there are always going to be cases with temporary speed limits or a lag in database updates where any system will be behind the legal truths / the reality of a sign placed along the roadside. Cars will need to be able to deal with this in order to really advance to proper self driving, so having some sort of sign recognition system is going to be needed.
Yes, some visual recognition might be required at times but, importantly, much less than before. As permanent cellular network communications become more common in cars it becomes plausible that shorter-term restrictions could be reflected. Looking further ahead, roadside-to-car communication protocol development is fairly well advanced - so the road signs might be talking to your car in a few years (though I wouldn't hold my breath.)
KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:51
jnty wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:02 Surely the existence of a national speed limit proves that establishing a database is easier rather than harder? In many cases these databases have already been established by authorities (whether publicly available or not) or by a commercial operation supplying data to satnavs. The situation with updates is even simpler - if the database is the source of legal truth (as is already the case for eg. Edinburgh Council's parking TROs) then the councils are forced to update the database whenever they update the speed limit, just as they'd have to do with TROs and paper records previously.
Well no the NSL covers those roads for which no specific speed limit has been set. There are no specific TRO's in place for those roads. As for the map at best it proves a colour coded map of some of the streets in Edinburgh has been made. Note the coverage is far from complete.

As for Satnavs there are commercial companies that produce that mapping and they deal with the satnav companies on a commercial basis, now the most up to date are systems like Waze where the users can enter corrections but for the most part you would be unwise to depend on speed limits displayed on Satnavs as they can get out of date and of course where you have variable speed limits all bets are off.

Again drill down into the Parking TRO's and what you find are pdf documents NOT a database and the legend specifically states that they are based on Ordnance Survey maps. The give away its not a database is that you can only extract information with the Eyeball Human Mk1.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that ordinance survey mapping and databases are incompatible. OS are probably the biggest supplier of geospatial data in the country. The "colour coded" speed limit map is generated by ArcGIS which can be seen as a geospatial database system. The map tiles are indeed published as images in PDF files but these will have been generated by a system which stores the exact locations of restricted areas and renders them on an OS basemap for publication.
KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:51 The enforcement of those maps depends on the existence of the TRO in question.
Here is how you check
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/roads-pave ... ders-new/4
The web page you linked includes two parking-related TROs, for which the on-the-ground changes are expressed as...changes to the map tile database.
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KeithW
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

jnty wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 18:39

I'm not sure where you got the idea that ordinance survey mapping and databases are incompatible. OS are probably the biggest supplier of geospatial data in the country. The "colour coded" speed limit map is generated by ArcGIS which can be seen as a geospatial database system. The map tiles are indeed published as images in PDF files but these will have been generated by a system which stores the exact locations of restricted areas and renders them on an OS basemap for publication.
KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:51 The enforcement of those maps depends on the existence of the TRO in question.
Here is how you check
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/roads-pave ... ders-new/4
The web page you linked includes two parking-related TROs, for which the on-the-ground changes are expressed as...changes to the map tile database.
As a retired Senior Software Engineer I am very aware of the differences between a map and database, indeed I have worked on systems that turned a database into a map.

A map tiled representation is simply a series of graphical squares stitched together, in fact I have annotated some of the maps in the Sabre system. As I recall the OS 1:25,000 map had 2270 individual maps and I had to add the data for each one to include metadata such as title, revision, corner coordinates etc. Here is a small example of a job that took months to do

nc76.kml 58.59842699:-4.23867296 58.51155491:-4.06145329 NC76 Sheet 29/76 Provisional Edition Revision A (1950)+
nc80.kml 58.06271775:-4.03557821 57.97550872:-3.86143069 NC80 Sheet 29/80 Provisional Edition Revision A (1950)+
nc86.knl 58.60130664:-4.06673402 58.51419580:-3.88992155 NC86 Sheet 29/86 Provisional Edition Revision A (1950)+
nc90.kml 58.06549784:-3.86615686 57.97801236:-3.69256594 NC90 Sheet 29/90 Provisional Edition Revision A (1950)+
nc95.kml 58.51433314:-3.88979027 58.42684648:3.71397641 NC96 Sheet 29/95 Provisional Edition Revision A (1950)+

Now trying to do that in a way that could be used to convert the Edinburgh TRO's into a database that you could fire SQL queries at would be a huge task. I know - we tried that for the Ohio Dept of Transport.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 21:02
jnty wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 18:39

I'm not sure where you got the idea that ordinance survey mapping and databases are incompatible. OS are probably the biggest supplier of geospatial data in the country. The "colour coded" speed limit map is generated by ArcGIS which can be seen as a geospatial database system. The map tiles are indeed published as images in PDF files but these will have been generated by a system which stores the exact locations of restricted areas and renders them on an OS basemap for publication.
KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 17:51 The enforcement of those maps depends on the existence of the TRO in question.
Here is how you check
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/roads-pave ... ders-new/4
The web page you linked includes two parking-related TROs, for which the on-the-ground changes are expressed as...changes to the map tile database.
As a retired Senior Software Engineer I am very aware of the differences between a map and database, indeed I have worked on systems that turned a database into a map.

A map tiled representation is simply a series of graphical squares stitched together, in fact I have annotated some of the maps in the Sabre system. As I recall the OS 1:25,000 map had 2270 individual maps and I had to add the data for each one to include metadata such as title, revision, corner coordinates etc. Here is a small example of a job that took months to do
The tiled OS basemap is distinct from the geospatial data displayed on it though. Yes - taking the published PDFs and trying to input them to a GIS system would be a nightmare - but these PDFs will have been generated by a GIS system superimposing stored geospatial data onto a large-scale OS basemap.

(Ironically, the OS base mapping tiles themselves will presumably been generated from the OS MasterMap geospatial database, so it's databases all the way down. But clearly the council will be using the published tiles from OS, just as we are consuming the published tiles from the council.)

You can generate similar but more simplified mapping at their publicly available ArcGIS webviewer by selecting "Transport > Waiting & Loading Markings". The geospatial data is distinct from the basemap and you can superimpose the markings on eg. 2000s aerial mapping imagery rather than the default OS mapping. It's not intrinsically linked to the OS mapping but is a separate geospatial data layer. You're presumably not meant to, but you could download the raw geospatial data by imitating the queries the web app makes to the server.
Kaasdrager
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Kaasdrager »

jnty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:24 You can generate similar but more simplified mapping at their publicly available ArcGIS webviewer by selecting "Transport > Waiting & Loading Markings". The geospatial data is distinct from the basemap and you can superimpose the markings on eg. 2000s aerial mapping imagery rather than the default OS mapping. It's not intrinsically linked to the OS mapping but is a separate geospatial data layer. You're presumably not meant to, but you could download the raw geospatial data by imitating the queries the web app makes to the server.
No need even to imitate anything - it's just a publicly accessible ArcGIS Server map service and it's trivially easy - and legal - to download the whole dataset. Commercial use or re-publishing is another matter of course.

But back to the wider point - it's interesting to see that Edinburgh has indeed made the map the legal truth for their TROs. A good step forward - and presumably the actual dataset underlying it (not itself the legal truth, but close enough) could be sent over to satnav companies.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by ManomayLR »

My school has a subscription to full ArcGIS - so I'll take a look there too and let you know!
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by KeithW »

jnty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:24
The tiled OS basemap is distinct from the geospatial data displayed on it though. Yes - taking the published PDFs and trying to input them to a GIS system would be a nightmare - but these PDFs will have been generated by a GIS system superimposing stored geospatial data onto a large-scale OS basemap.

(Ironically, the OS base mapping tiles themselves will presumably been generated from the OS MasterMap geospatial database, so it's databases all the way down. But clearly the council will be using the published tiles from OS, just as we are consuming the published tiles from the council.)

You can generate similar but more simplified mapping at their publicly available ArcGIS webviewer by selecting "Transport > Waiting & Loading Markings". The geospatial data is distinct from the basemap and you can superimpose the markings on eg. 2000s aerial mapping imagery rather than the default OS mapping. It's not intrinsically linked to the OS mapping but is a separate geospatial data layer. You're presumably not meant to, but you could download the raw geospatial data by imitating the queries the web app makes to the server.
None of which makes the map a database, please explain how I could fire a standard SQL Query at this interface. if you believe otherwise.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 16:05
jnty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:24
The tiled OS basemap is distinct from the geospatial data displayed on it though. Yes - taking the published PDFs and trying to input them to a GIS system would be a nightmare - but these PDFs will have been generated by a GIS system superimposing stored geospatial data onto a large-scale OS basemap.

(Ironically, the OS base mapping tiles themselves will presumably been generated from the OS MasterMap geospatial database, so it's databases all the way down. But clearly the council will be using the published tiles from OS, just as we are consuming the published tiles from the council.)

You can generate similar but more simplified mapping at their publicly available ArcGIS webviewer by selecting "Transport > Waiting & Loading Markings". The geospatial data is distinct from the basemap and you can superimpose the markings on eg. 2000s aerial mapping imagery rather than the default OS mapping. It's not intrinsically linked to the OS mapping but is a separate geospatial data layer. You're presumably not meant to, but you could download the raw geospatial data by imitating the queries the web app makes to the server.
None of which makes the map a database, please explain how I could fire a standard SQL Query at this interface. if you believe otherwise.
The web app I linked is the frontend to an ArcGIS geospatial database against which SQL queries can be executed. The web app is backed by this database but does not allow direct SQL queries to be made by users, in the same way that this forum is backed by a database but does not offer users the ability to make direct queries against it. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of ArcGIS usage but it sounds from what Kaasdrager says that if you have the client software then it's trivial to access the database directly and execute queries against it to your heart's content.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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jnty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 16:16 The web app I linked is the frontend to an ArcGIS geospatial database against which SQL queries can be executed. The web app is backed by this database but does not allow direct SQL queries to be made by users, in the same way that this forum is backed by a database but does not offer users the ability to make direct queries against it. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of ArcGIS usage but it sounds from what Kaasdrager says that if you have the client software then it's trivial to access the database directly and execute queries against it to your heart's content.
Yes but if you want to extract data from the database SQL is precisely how you want to do it and you set permissions to Read-Only for external users to prevent tampering or inadvertent modifications. You will also wish to restrict access to certain data. I may be wrong but as I understand ArcGIS is designed to allow a maximum of 10 users at a time.

The one thing you definitely do NOT want is to allow users to access the database directly, that is a security nightmare.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by WHBM »

Non-standard signage for private premises is readily available from suppliers. It never has any back board for the return to normal public highway limits. That really makes any actual control of the vehicle by sign recognition impractical.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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KeithW wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 20:43
jnty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 16:16 The web app I linked is the frontend to an ArcGIS geospatial database against which SQL queries can be executed. The web app is backed by this database but does not allow direct SQL queries to be made by users, in the same way that this forum is backed by a database but does not offer users the ability to make direct queries against it. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of ArcGIS usage but it sounds from what Kaasdrager says that if you have the client software then it's trivial to access the database directly and execute queries against it to your heart's content.
Yes but if you want to extract data from the database SQL is precisely how you want to do it and you set permissions to Read-Only for external users to prevent tampering or inadvertent modifications. You will also wish to restrict access to certain data. I may be wrong but as I understand ArcGIS is designed to allow a maximum of 10 users at a time.

The one thing you definitely do NOT want is to allow users to access the database directly, that is a security nightmare.
Interfaces which allow humans to execute hand crafted SQL queries are one particular method of engagement with many popular types of database software. As you'll know, their existence isn't some kind of gold standard test of "databaseness" and it's rarely the optimum way to engage with one. We are both quite happily engaging with the SABRE forums database right now without manually writing a letter of SQL.

This particular semantic debate has little relevance to the tractability of storing speed limits or any other geospatial legal data and I feel the focus on specific technical details is obscuring a more fundamental point about access and usefulness of data. Even if digitised, text TROs are extremely difficult to effectively "query" and so hard to update that even experts frequently make mistakes. I strongly believe that, whatever the upfront cost, converting these into publicly available structured digital formats (avoiding that danger word) which allow for easy programmatic access and update is worth it, not only for the reduction in ongoing administrative burden but also the many new opportunities that it unlocks, such as in-car access and greater general transparency to the public.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 22:42 TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
And some authorities, I won't name them directly but it rhymes with Cackburn with Darwen, didn't even bother providing TROs for numerous 20 limits in the first place because the engineer responsible claimed they were self enforcing so why bother with the legal headache. There's a story to chase, please feel free.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Bryn666 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:33
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 22:42 TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
And some authorities, I won't name them directly but it rhymes with Cackburn with Darwen, didn't even bother providing TROs for numerous 20 limits in the first place because the engineer responsible claimed they were self enforcing so why bother with the legal headache. There's a story to chase, please feel free.
Classic failure to understand what they mean by self enforcing there....!
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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c2R wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:37
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:33
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 22:42 TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
And some authorities, I won't name them directly but it rhymes with Cackburn with Darwen, didn't even bother providing TROs for numerous 20 limits in the first place because the engineer responsible claimed they were self enforcing so why bother with the legal headache. There's a story to chase, please feel free.
Classic failure to understand what they mean by self enforcing there....!
I remember asking why there was a black hole in the speed limits data and being told "it's not a priority" to fix... no, because it would have been terrible for Crapita to admit they'd misled their client wouldn't it. :roll:
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 22:42 TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
I'm not suggesting getting rid of TROs, just modernising their format and management. I guess the biggest legal changes as in-car limiting/display becomes more common would probably be in signage regulations rather than the TROs themselves - you might gradually move to signing the start of a restriction but leave the "repeating" to the car, for example. This obviously requires reliability in disseminating the limits to cars authoritatively to work probably, but also allows older cars to be driven safely on the proviso that their drivers are required to be a bit more alert/use a handheld device.

I guess the "self-enforcing" thing might start to come into its own, for better or for worse, as database-driven limiting tech enters more and more cars over the next decade. Who cares what the real legal limit on a road is if 90% of the cars are limiting themselves to a lower one?
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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jnty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:55
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 22:42 TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
I'm not suggesting getting rid of TROs, just modernising their format and management. I guess the biggest legal changes as in-car limiting/display becomes more common would probably be in signage regulations rather than the TROs themselves - you might gradually move to signing the start of a restriction but leave the "repeating" to the car, for example. This obviously requires reliability in disseminating the limits to cars authoritatively to work probably, but also allows older cars to be driven safely on the proviso that their drivers are required to be a bit more alert/use a handheld device.

I guess the "self-enforcing" thing might start to come into its own, for better or for worse, as database-driven limiting tech enters more and more cars over the next decade. Who cares what the real legal limit on a road is if 90% of the cars are limiting themselves to a lower one?
Councils are now successfully using map based TRO's rather than paper based and I've commented on several.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by jnty »

RichardA35 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:11
jnty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:55
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 22:42 TROs, however difficult to query, form the basis of the speed limit regime that exists on British roads. Identifying what the most recent one to apply to any given section of road is therefore pretty critical to any proposed automatic speed restriction scheme, and ensuring that the on-the-road signage matches it is also critical. A sign without a TRO carries no weight, and a TRO with no (or incorrect) signage cannot be enforced either. The possibilities for cock-up are pretty much endless.
I'm not suggesting getting rid of TROs, just modernising their format and management. I guess the biggest legal changes as in-car limiting/display becomes more common would probably be in signage regulations rather than the TROs themselves - you might gradually move to signing the start of a restriction but leave the "repeating" to the car, for example. This obviously requires reliability in disseminating the limits to cars authoritatively to work probably, but also allows older cars to be driven safely on the proviso that their drivers are required to be a bit more alert/use a handheld device.

I guess the "self-enforcing" thing might start to come into its own, for better or for worse, as database-driven limiting tech enters more and more cars over the next decade. Who cares what the real legal limit on a road is if 90% of the cars are limiting themselves to a lower one?
Councils are now successfully using map based TRO's rather than paper based and I've commented on several.
https://appyway.com/portfolio/inside-do ... d-orders/
Yeah I was pretty sure it can't only have been Edinburgh that's done this. A really interesting look behind the scenes, thanks for that. Sounds like they've done speed limits etc. as well as just parking?
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KeithW
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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jnty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:41

Yeah I was pretty sure it can't only have been Edinburgh that's done this. A really interesting look behind the scenes, thanks for that. Sounds like they've done speed limits etc. as well as just parking?
Let me try and explain again the technical issues here. If you want to use speed limiting systems in cars that refer to TRO's then you are going to need some major infrastructure expenditure.

Lets assume you have a typical D2 road - you can easily have 40,000 vehicle movements per day and each vehicle will be making multiple queries as it travels. Even at 30 mph you will be covering over 13 metres every second, realistically means thousands of queries every minute and responses have to be in real time. Each Query/Response has to be individually addressed, this all has to happen in all weathers and in urban areas which in terms of RF propagation are problematic at best. This is going require a LOT of spectrum bandwidth, considerable computer power that is certified for real time operation and is highly resilient. We are talking massive data centres consuming large amounts of power and then you have to add additional discrimination systems to determine if you are on the motorway or the parallel local access road. Take a look at NATS (National Air Traffic Control System) to see the sort of thing you need for a MUCH lower number of movements.

Alternatively you can use the KISS principle (Keep it Simple Stupid) and simply have radio emitters to back up the visual signs by narrowcasting the speed limit. No massive databases, datacenters or huge overheads just a simple transponder. Simpler yet you rely on signs, the human eyeball Mk 1 and speed cameras - Oh wait we already do this.
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