M20 Operation Brock

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

With all these works and the now immediate threat of Brexit, it would be suitable really for the entire M20 to be upgraded to a smart motorway with a separate carriageway for channel traffic to be stacked in events causing disruption. Currently, with 3 lanes and a hard shoulder each way (and the grassy central reservation), there could possibly be enough room for 3 (definitely 2) lanes of normal traffic each way; 2 lanes coastbound for channel traffic with a narrow lane between for supply/emergency vehicles. With the amount of faff around both the poor and ridiculous Operation Stack and Brock, surely everyone can't avoid the fact a permanent solution is needed. It'd only be the cost of a smart motorway upgrade, plus the fact some bridge piers may need to be adjusted to fit three carriageways, and the fact new sliproads would need to be constructed. I'd be interested to see what everyone's solution would be for this but that's really for the Fantasy Roads thread.
User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Conekicker »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 20:36 With all these works and the now immediate threat of Brexit, it would be suitable really for the entire M20 to be upgraded to a smart motorway with a separate carriageway for channel traffic to be stacked in events causing disruption. Currently, with 3 lanes and a hard shoulder each way (and the grassy central reservation), there could possibly be enough room for 3 (definitely 2) lanes of normal traffic each way; 2 lanes coastbound for channel traffic with a narrow lane between for supply/emergency vehicles. With the amount of faff around both the poor and ridiculous Operation Stack and Brock, surely everyone can't avoid the fact a permanent solution is needed. It'd only be the cost of a smart motorway upgrade, plus the fact some bridge piers may need to be adjusted to fit three carriageways, and the fact new sliproads would need to be constructed. I'd be interested to see what everyone's solution would be for this but that's really for the Fantasy Roads thread.
Pray for permanent fog in the Channel to cut the continent off from us? :wink:
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
DB617
Member
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by DB617 »

Permanent smartification to deal with Brexit related problems clashes with current Government policy that the disruption to traffic flow will be temporary; there is a lot of politics behind why the arrangements are little more permanent than narrow lanes for barrier replacements. It will take time for reality to set in but I suspect if there is any money, your suggestion for using it to permanently modify the road is a sensible one. One problem - lack of 'facilities' for channel bound traffic that may be stuck on the motorway for long periods of time. That's where the airfield idea does work better as portakabin service facilities and eateries can be established.
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by A9NWIL »

DB617 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 15:01 Permanent smartification to deal with Brexit related problems clashes with current Government policy that the disruption to traffic flow will be temporary; there is a lot of politics behind why the arrangements are little more permanent than narrow lanes for barrier replacements. It will take time for reality to set in but I suspect if there is any money, your suggestion for using it to permanently modify the road is a sensible one. One problem - lack of 'facilities' for channel bound traffic that may be stuck on the motorway for long periods of time. That's where the airfield idea does work better as portakabin service facilities and eateries can be established.
This government wont be making things a temporary issue on the M20 however much they tell people otherwise! Our infrastructure is set up for trade with Europe in this area and they are planning for a hard brexit at the end of this year. The solution of 3 carriageways would be the best option, yes make it permanent It looks like we now need it!
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
djw1981
Member
Posts: 1803
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 00:07
Location: Falkirk

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by djw1981 »

Alderpoint wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 09:31 Even just using the other two (closed) lanes for same-direction traffic would ease the situration enormousely.
Surely this would be fairly easy to setup. 2 lanes for 'end to end' journies only and 2 for general use? Effectively a C/D setup?
User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Alderpoint »

djw1981 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 17:55
Alderpoint wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 09:31 Even just using the other two (closed) lanes for same-direction traffic would ease the situration enormousely.
Surely this would be fairly easy to setup. 2 lanes for 'end to end' journies only and 2 for general use? Effectively a C/D setup?
Exactly.
Let it snow.
DB617
Member
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by DB617 »

That works well enough as long as the queuing area has provision for long stays. My other issue is that if the queue moves forward by one set of lorries every, say, ten minutes being optimistic, then the drivers will have to be constantly at the wheel, making their long stay technically still time on the road and requiring them to take an official rest stop somewhere other than the queuing carriageway. The rules do not make exceptions for these extreme situations like the transportation disaster that will be Kent if it all goes worst case.
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Berk »

It’s hardly beyond the gift of government to make special legislation for HGV drivers stuck on this motorway.

They wouldn’t be there for any other reason.
DB617
Member
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by DB617 »

Berk wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 22:24 It’s hardly beyond the gift of government to make special legislation for HGV drivers stuck on this motorway.

They wouldn’t be there for any other reason.
One has to wonder, if removal of safety legislation is required to make a design work, is the design safe?
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Berk »

That’s taking a very rigid approach, as if no departures from guidelines can ever be accepted.

If you’re driving at no more than 10mph, moving very infrequently. It’s hardly like driving for 4¾ hours at 60mph, and you need a break to be mentally strong and focused.
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11036
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by AndyB »

It is however very tiring to be sitting in a traffic queue not being able to go anywhere.

In reality, if driving hours were relaxed in the UK and a driver is stuck in such a queue waiting to take a trailer across the channel, then they would have to stop as soon as they hit French soil because their tachograph would show them in breach of EU regulations, and they wouldn't be able to legally continue until the minimum rest period had been taken.
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Berk »

I am thinking more of the “being stuck on the motorway” aspect, when there is little prospect of movement.

Yes, moving slowly is very tiring, but there is also a difference when you know that the traffic, weather, or other problems are blocking you from moving on with your journey at normal speed, and you won’t be able to go any faster, however much you want to. Or take an alternative route.

However, as you point out, once the lorries have cleared customs, and boarded a ferry, it’s only ½-hour to France. So they would need a(n overnight??) break at some point before boarding.
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

Who said the third carriageway I had in mind would be under motorway regulations? I never considered it beforehand but it'd make for easier operation perhaps in the event of a queue.
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by A9NWIL »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 14:57 Who said the third carriageway I had in mind would be under motorway regulations? I never considered it beforehand but it'd make for easier operation perhaps in the event of a queue.
Make it a special road with HGV class and emergency vehicles only. Also a signed speed limit of 30mph. It wouldnt be a motorway in the conventional sense at all.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5661
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Vierwielen »

Conekicker wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 21:38
Nathan_A_RF wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 20:36 With all these works and the now immediate threat of Brexit, it would be suitable really for the entire M20 to be upgraded to a smart motorway with a separate carriageway for channel traffic to be stacked in events causing disruption. Currently, with 3 lanes and a hard shoulder each way (and the grassy central reservation), there could possibly be enough room for 3 (definitely 2) lanes of normal traffic each way; 2 lanes coastbound for channel traffic with a narrow lane between for supply/emergency vehicles. With the amount of faff around both the poor and ridiculous Operation Stack and Brock, surely everyone can't avoid the fact a permanent solution is needed. It'd only be the cost of a smart motorway upgrade, plus the fact some bridge piers may need to be adjusted to fit three carriageways, and the fact new sliproads would need to be constructed. I'd be interested to see what everyone's solution would be for this but that's really for the Fantasy Roads thread.
Pray for permanent fog in the Channel to cut the continent off from us? :wink:
Eurostar trains are unaffected by fog!
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11155
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by c2R »

No-deal Brexit: Kent agencies 'to stand down' contingency plans: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-50984454
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5661
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Vierwielen »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 20:36 With all these works and the now immediate threat of Brexit, it would be suitable really for the entire M20 to be upgraded to a smart motorway with a separate carriageway for channel traffic to be stacked in events causing disruption. Currently, with 3 lanes and a hard shoulder each way (and the grassy central reservation), there could possibly be enough room for 3 (definitely 2) lanes of normal traffic each way; 2 lanes coastbound for channel traffic with a narrow lane between for supply/emergency vehicles. With the amount of faff around both the poor and ridiculous Operation Stack and Brock, surely everyone can't avoid the fact a permanent solution is needed. It'd only be the cost of a smart motorway upgrade, plus the fact some bridge piers may need to be adjusted to fit three carriageways, and the fact new sliproads would need to be constructed. I'd be interested to see what everyone's solution would be for this but that's really for the Fantasy Roads thread.
While junctions 2 to 4a of the M3 were being upgraded to a "smart motorway", we had two years of chaos even though the exercise was planned well in advance. Smart motrway upgrades are not a trivial exercise.
SarahJ
Member
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 02:22
Location: Brighton, South Coast

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by SarahJ »

This mess has cost me £100 and 3 points.
A drive over to cologne and the way to Dover on the M20 with it's speed limits and barriers all set up (October).
So my return ferry docked at Dover at 23.00. Why not take the coastal route, I'm sick of roadworks.

I took the coastal route. It was dead.

Then the one bit of D2 at Bexhill. I knew there was a limit and a camera. 40, and there was the camera. Phew. Down the hill, through the lights. What that a flash? The lights were green. Yes, another camera, one of these new traffic light/speed camera jobbies. Oh, forgot to mention, the limit went to 30 just before the lights as well.
45 in a 30 at 1am, pah!!!

Fixed penalty. £100 and 3 points. Could have been worse. Very odd system. Send the form off to sussex police, pay £100 online, then send DL off to another address in Southend on Sea. If they like the cut of your jib, all ok, if not payment refunded and off to court. Back comes the DL and the form stamped processed, thats it. Go online, 3 points.

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

I must admit that 30 limit is poorly signed; they're large but very faded and it's on a downhill stretch. Frustrating as that's the only 40 break in miles of 30 through Hastings and Bexhill. Shame the M20 is still riddled with roadworks and Brock. Still, at least J10a is finished so that can now become a mess on its own...
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/ne ... ar-219519/
New development regarding removal of the dreaded barrier
Post Reply