M20 Operation Brock

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Alderpoint »

Hurray.
Let it snow.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Bryn666 »

Needless quote from backbench MP crowing that a majority Tory govt is making people's lives better by removing these barriers.

Ignoring totally that it's the fault of Tory MPs that they're there to begin with.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7500
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Big L »

Just to make sure I have this right...

The barriers were up because we didn't know whether or when the B word was going to happen. But now we know* that the B word is happening, and when, they take the barriers down, even though no-one knows what disruption is going to be caused.

* - the word "know" is carrying a lot of weight in this statement.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Bryn666 »

It all rather stinks of Dominic Cummings.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
DB617
Member
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by DB617 »

Which of course means the bosses at Highways England will be blamed if the M20 is bumper to bumper on 1st Feb.
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by A9NWIL »

Big L wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 17:43 Just to make sure I have this right...

The barriers were up because we didn't know whether or when the B word was going to happen. But now we know* that the B word is happening, and when, they take the barriers down, even though no-one knows what disruption is going to be caused.

* - the word "know" is carrying a lot of weight in this statement.
I thought they were down because the withdrawal agreement is nicely going through parliament and as the government have a majority they see no reason to believe it wont get through alright.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by A9NWIL »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 18:31 It all rather stinks of Dominic Cummings.
That man is truly awful!
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by someone »

DB617 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 20:02Which of course means the bosses at Highways England will be blamed if the M20 is bumper to bumper on 1st Feb.
The withdrawal agreement keeps the U.K. in the single market and customs union whilst a a new relationship is negotiated with the E.U., the so-called transitional period. As the withdrawal agreement is now as good as certain to be passed by parliament, nothing like that will happen on February 1st as nothing will change procedurally.

However, that transitional period will end on December 31st, and the government has said that it will not seek an extension to it. So if no deal is reached and they keep to their word, then it will lead to the same "hard Brexit" as leaving without an agreement, including the projected traffic chaos.

So potentially all the preparations that are currently being undone or stood down may need to be reimplemented later in the year. But it probably is not beneficial to anyone to keep part of the M20 closed for the whole year for something that will not happen until 2021.
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31459
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by roadtester »

someone wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 21:46
DB617 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 20:02Which of course means the bosses at Highways England will be blamed if the M20 is bumper to bumper on 1st Feb.
The withdrawal agreement keeps the U.K. in the single market and customs union whilst a a new relationship is negotiated with the E.U., the so-called transitional period. As the withdrawal agreement is now as good as certain to be passed by parliament, nothing like that will happen on February 1st as nothing will change procedurally.

However, that transitional period will end on December 31st, and the government has said that it will not seek an extension to it. So if no deal is reached and they keep to their word, then it will lead to the same "hard Brexit" as leaving without an agreement, including the projected traffic chaos.

So potentially all the preparations that are currently being undone or stood down may need to be reimplemented later in the year. But it probably is not beneficial to anyone to keep part of the M20 closed for the whole year for something that will not happen until 2021.
Precisely - there is still a high chance of a no deal cliff edge as we come out of the transition period at the end of the year.

My guess is that this move is part of an effort to promote a misleading "good news" narrative about "getting Brexit done", and to avoid having the restrictions in place for up to a year while we wait for the end of the transition period. But those barriers may still be needed.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by A303Chris »

Official HE press release with plans of the nice diversion routes
The M25 - The road to nowhere
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-new ... 735705.amp An idea similar to mine of adding a third carriageway to the M20, albeit this one a little more expansive.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Chris5156 »

I've yet to be convinced that building a third carriageway alongside the M20 is a good solution. You'd have all the disruption of works alongside the M20, massive earthworks, reconstruction of all the bridges, etc, all to create a lorry park that would be spread over 20 miles where it would be impossible to provide decent welfare facilities. Surely it's better to spend less money building a lorry park on a single site near the M20 with toilet blocks and other facilities that can be reached by everyone parked in it.
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

I do agree a lorry park would probably be the most practical, cheapest, and easiest solution to construct to provide stacking area for lorries in channel disruption. However, a site to hold as many lorries would need to have a huge space, and as good as Mansfield is for that, the A256 is not anywhere up to standard along some parts of its route to handle the queues of lorries heading to the Port and allow for overtaking room (the single sections around Sandwich, Eastry, and Jubilee Way down to Dover). This would also send Channel Tunnel traffic through Dover meaning they'd have to turn round at Junction 11, or all the way back up to the A249 and then the M20. There was the site proposed near Junction 11 in fact, but building that from scratch would have a huge environmental footprint. However, I suspect roadworks to convert the M20 somehow would be even worse. Whatever the solution may be, any idea is better than the temporary measure that was Operation Stack, and is Operation Brock. We need to build for the future of goods across the channel.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Chris5156 »

Maybe we need Boris Johnson's cross-Channel bridge, and then we can stack all the lorries on that instead :wink:
User avatar
Achmelvic
Member
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 21:50
Location: Castleford, Yorkshire

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Achmelvic »

If there's a need for a large area to park trucks before/after crossing the channel in the post Brexit world building it near Dollands Moor would seemed the most sensible, such as on this bit of not exactly prime looking land south of the railway. It would need some a few new roads and slips to give access to/from the M20 and Tunnel but nothing major. Albeit getting planning permissions and past local opposition might take some time...

Incidentally does anyone know what the government/MOD looking area is just to the south? No labels on Google maps which always peaks my interest! ;-)
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by jervi »

Achmelvic wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 14:35 Incidentally does anyone know what the government/MOD looking area is just to the south? No labels on Google maps which always peaks my interest! ;-)
It's just an MOD training area. Nothing special Dibgate Camp. From all I can find on it, it was a Canadian Inf Camp in WWI, and now a training area, looks to be used a lot by cadets.
User avatar
Achmelvic
Member
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 21:50
Location: Castleford, Yorkshire

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by Achmelvic »

jervi wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 18:15
It's just an MOD training area. Nothing special Dibgate Camp. From all I can find on it, it was a Canadian Inf Camp in WWI, and now a training area, looks to be used a lot by cadets.
Ah righto, thanks. So if that parcel of land is already government owned it could extended into under my fantasy lorry park plans, assuming the cadet training could be re-homed.
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by jervi »

Achmelvic wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 09:38
Ah righto, thanks. So if that parcel of land is already government owned it could extended into under my fantasy lorry park plans, assuming the cadet training could be re-homed.
Very well could become a lorry park, especially since the MOD is always shrinking its estate.
Would also require some extra slip road on J11A (maybe only opened to HVG traffic when Op is in action)
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: M20 Operation Brock

Post by KeithW »

jervi wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:14 Very well could become a lorry park, especially since the MOD is always shrinking its estate.
Would also require some extra slip road on J11A (maybe only opened to HVG traffic when Op is in action)
Dibgate camp may not be large enough, there is a fair bit of hilly terrain and road access is pretty poor. Its mainly used by Army Reserve units for weekend training.
http://images.milton.halinet.on.ca/73400/image/187869

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.08622 ... authuser=0
Post Reply