Northern M11 extension into the Fens is to be quietly allowed to die

[jackal]

Here's my rebuild for Milton Interchange:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ima ... -_Copy.png

All movements are retained except A10 to/from Milton, which is virtually a U-turn and low demand. All movements between A10, A14 and A1039 are freeflow.

I use A10 to/from Milton all the time to access Tesco, and in particular its filling station (which is just off the small roundabout on the right of the pic).

My guess would be that that is actually quite a popular flow - or at least one that people would moan about if it were removed.

I suspect quite a lot of people use it to access the industrial estate just to the right of the same roundabout as well.

The left turn can be put in very easily if required. The right can be done either by going through Milton or by going down Cowley Road and Cowley Park and back up the A1309.

[roadtester]

Here's my rebuild for Milton Interchange:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ima ... -_Copy.png

All movements are retained except A10 to/from Milton, which is virtually a U-turn and low demand. All movements between A10, A14 and A1039 are freeflow.

I use A10 to/from Milton all the time to access Tesco, and in particular its filling station (which is just off the small roundabout on the right of the pic).

My guess would be that that is actually quite a popular flow - or at least one that people would moan about if it were removed.

I suspect quite a lot of people use it to access the industrial estate just to the right of the same roundabout as well.

The left turn can be put in very easily if required. The right can be done either by going through Milton or by going down Cowley Road and Cowley Park and back up the A1309.

But if all of the traffic going to Tesco and the industrial estate goes through Milton, that will defeat much of the purpose of having the A10 bypass of Milton.

As it is, the old road through Milton is very much set up to deter through traffic - they really don't want people to go through there!

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2469001 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2460075 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2426353 ... 384!8i8192

PS - Cowley Road seems to be very much designed as access for Cowley Park which I wouldn't have thought would necessarily be particularly adaptable to carry more traffic as a through route:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2356793 ... 384!8i8192

[jackal]

Revised version here: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ima ... -_Copy.png

But to be honest it was mostly an academic exercise, and has drawbacks as you mention. Even if A10-A14 is freeflowed there's no need for freeflow access to the science park.

[crb11]

The reason for this is a proposal to relocate the Milton sewage works so that a new neighbourhood can be built. That would surely justify (sigh) a new junction, and access to/from the A10, as without that it would be pretty pointless.

It seems so ingenious, it’s a wonder no-one had thought of it before.

The proposals for the development definitely don't include new access to the A10 or A14 - as others have said it would be challenging to work out where they'd go. The idea is to provide good pedestrian/cycle access to the local business parks and Cambridge North station. Even as someone who is keen on greener transport I'm not convinced this is going to work, and said so in the recent round of consultations. (I work right next to the development site.)

[Berk]

That’s pretty damned silly because with the housing estate there would be lots of 106 or 278 money sloshing around to build a new junction.

It looks a little bit tight, but I think there is just enough room to avoid the country park. And if there isn’t, that’s too bad. Population and labour market trends mean it’s difficult to halt the growth of Cambridge.

[roadtester]

Revised version here: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ima ... -_Copy.png

But to be honest it was mostly an academic exercise, and has drawbacks as you mention. Even if A10-A14 is freeflowed there's no need for freeflow access to the science park.

I thought it was pretty ingenious actually but I think the answer may lie in some sort of much bigger solution like shifting the A10 or A14 altogether with some sort of "bypass of the bypass".

The other difficulty is that doing anything that involves much land take, especially to the south of the A14, is probably competing with alternative attractive uses for development of high tech in/near the science park - in contrast to most of the rest of the region where space is at far less of a premium.

[Berk]

Yes, I’ve often felt in regards to these issues, and the A14 (being closely related), the traffic needs of Cambridge are now such that the Northern Bypass needs to solely belong to Cambridge-bound traffic only.

And a Northern Bypass 2 is required for the A14. Might also stop some of those nasty early-morning shunts you always hear about on the radio. Especially near Stow-cum-Quy and the Milton Interchange...

If the NB2 was ever proposed, I would certainly be looking to make it limited access, possibly with just a fork at each end. There wouldn’t be any point building it if you’re going to let A10 traffic join it.

[jackal]

Yes, I’ve often felt in regards to these issues, and the A14 (being closely related), the traffic needs of Cambridge are now such that the Northern Bypass needs to solely belong to Cambridge-bound traffic only.

And a Northern Bypass 2 is required for the A14. Might also stop some of those nasty early-morning shunts you always hear about on the radio. Especially near Stow-cum-Quy and the Milton Interchange...

If the NB2 was ever proposed, I would certainly be looking to make it limited access, possibly with just a fork at each end. There wouldn’t be any point building it if you’re going to let A10 traffic join it.

The amount of through traffic (as in, not going to Cambridge and surrounds) on the Northern Bypass is probably 20k AADT at most. After all, the A14 east of Stow-cum-Quy volumes only has about 40k, much of it for Cambridge. So I'm not sure there's really the demand for such a road. The heavy volumes are much more localised, and localized widening is probably the right solution.

[Bryn666]

I like these GSJ ideas but the big problem is that our stupid design standards would never allow them. "Multiple decision points" and lower radii etc.

However do places abroad cope? We've deliberately overspecced roads to the point that they're nigh on impossible to build.

[KeithW]

The real issue is that nobody is likely to do more than tinker with Milton until plans for Oxford Cambridge Expressway are finalised. The core of the problem is that no thought was given to the notion that the interchange may need to be upgraded or given to provision for direct access to the science park as it was being planned. As a result what was initially a small farm and minor industrial area to the north became a large Tesco while to the south Trinity farm was incorporated into the science park and built right up to the edges of the northern bypass. To constrain matters even more the triangle of land bounded by the sewage farm A10 and A14 was developed in the same way.

This is not untypical of Cambridge planning I am afraid - allow unlimited development without improving the transport infrastructure and then complain about the 'unexpected' congestion. The same thing is happening right now with the Cambridge North West Development where what is in effect a new town is being developed that will simply add a large volume of traffic onto the Madingley Road and Huntingdon Road. The traffic strategy seems to be 'it will be OK as we are encouraging people to cycle'

The statistics the developers quote are

Outline planning consent has been granted for the 150 hectare site which will include 1500 homes for University and College key workers, 1500 homes for sale, accommodation for 2000 post-graduate students, 100,000 square metres of research facilities (including 40,000 square meters for research institutes and private research facilities linked to the University), and a wide range of community facilities.

All of this will be accessed by 2 existing already congested S2 roads which lead to the M11 (southbound only) via Madingley Road and the A1307 to get northbound access to the new A14 via the Dry Drayton bridge and Bar Hill junction. The Huntingdon Road already has an AADT of around 20k while the Madingley Road carries 15k

This is not regarded as a problem for the new town of Eddington with its 3000 new houses , shopping centre and 100,000 square metres of scientific/industrial development. At least at Cambourne they dualled the A428 , built a GSJ and a D2 access road. Given that traffic for the Madingley Road junction already trails back along the M11 for a mile every morning while the queues on the A1307 to the A428 junction vary between 1 and 2 miles I beg to differ.

[Mattptb]

Cambridge pretty much needs upgrades to most sections of the major network which runs around it. Junctions needing to be rebuilt (M11/A603 and A1303), also once the A14 works are done then surely getting a M11nb to A428 free-flow slip at Gurton should be a priority to take the pressure off the A1303 junction and surely there would be room for this once the works are done.
In hindsight, I know it was unrealistic but perhaps the Huntingdon bypass could have extended beyond Swavesey to connect with the current A14 east of Cambridge with the M11 extended to where it meets the new A14 (Cambridge north bypass becomes the A428). This would remove Midland traffic coming from the ports from the Cambridge area which would help.

[roadtester]

I know I've said this before, but the problem is that people still seem to think of Cambridge as a small, quiet, low-key, provincial university town whereas it is in fact becoming a major global centre for high tech and bio-medical sciences that is going to grow a lot more in future whether we like it or not - and which will be vital for the whole of the UK economy.

The need is to think big rather than just carrying on bodging!

[camflyer]

I know I've said this before, but the problem is that people still seem to think of Cambridge as a small, quiet, low-key, provincial university town whereas it is in fact becoming a major global centre for high tech and bio-medical sciences that is going to grow a lot more in future whether we like it or not - and which will be vital for the whole of the UK economy.

The need is to think big rather than just carrying on bodging!

I moved to Cambridge 20 years ago and back then it really did feel like a fairly sleeply University city but it has changed beyond all recognition since then. I agree big solutions are required - we are one of the most prosperous cities in the country with some of the best brains on the planet. Surely we should be thinking of better answers than just more bus lanes.

Within the next few years there are going to be close on 10,000 extra people on the Science Park, Cambridge North development and on the old Gas Works site. All of this is good for jobs but the infrastructure needs to keep up.

A few thoughts:

1) Once the A14 upgrade has been completed, the A10 to has to be the next roads priority.

2) Stop fannying around and commit to a proper metro system

3) I'm generally in favour of the Gas Works/Cambridge North development but access is going to be an issue. The Milton Rd/Cowley Rd/Science Park junction needs major work as it is regularly gridlocked. While there is no room for another junction to provide direct access to the gas Works from the A14 I wonder if there is space for a road link (maybe replacing the current cycle bridge) from the new development to the A10?

[crb11]

3) I'm generally in favour of the Gas Works/Cambridge North development but access is going to be an issue. The Milton Rd/Cowley Rd/Science Park junction needs major work as it is regularly gridlocked. While there is no room for another junction to provide direct access to the gas Works from the A14 I wonder if there is space for a road link (maybe replacing the current cycle bridge) from the new development to the A10?

The current cycle bridge is relatively steep and I don't think you could put a road in following that profile, or a sensible junction at the south end when it meets Cowley Road. (I work here.) The other problem is that you're creating a through route for both the new development and Milton into Cambridge, but the Milton Road/Cowley Road junctions can't cope with the existing traffic, let alone putting more there.

One of my colleagues suggested a more radical proposal, which might work: run a LAR from the A10 junction, through the Tesco roundabout (modified) and then crossing the A14 and running parallel south of it, plugging into an improved and full-access junction 34. The new development gets road access off this LAR, but not from Cambridge proper (except for bus-gate access to allow a bus service in). This gives them sensible road access out of Cambridge, but encourages cycling/public transport inside the city. Arguably you could have road access to the St Johns Innovation Park (the triangle between the A14, Milton Road and Cowley Road) via this LAR too and block off the way out via Cowley Road. This might be hard to convince the owners to permit, but could give better road access overall.

[camflyer]

3) I'm generally in favour of the Gas Works/Cambridge North development but access is going to be an issue. The Milton Rd/Cowley Rd/Science Park junction needs major work as it is regularly gridlocked. While there is no room for another junction to provide direct access to the gas Works from the A14 I wonder if there is space for a road link (maybe replacing the current cycle bridge) from the new development to the A10?

The current cycle bridge is relatively steep and I don't think you could put a road in following that profile, or a sensible junction at the south end when it meets Cowley Road. (I work here.) The other problem is that you're creating a through route for both the new development and Milton into Cambridge, but the Milton Road/Cowley Road junctions can't cope with the existing traffic, let alone putting more there.

One of my colleagues suggested a more radical proposal, which might work: run a LAR from the A10 junction, through the Tesco roundabout (modified) and then crossing the A14 and running parallel south of it, plugging into an improved and full-access junction 34. The new development gets road access off this LAR, but not from Cambridge proper (except for bus-gate access to allow a bus service in). This gives them sensible road access out of Cambridge, but encourages cycling/public transport inside the city. Arguably you could have road access to the St Johns Innovation Park (the triangle between the A14, Milton Road and Cowley Road) via this LAR too and block off the way out via Cowley Road. This might be hard to convince the owners to permit, but could give better road access overall.

I quite like that idea - and is sort of what I was trying to get at with my bridge. It would also allow better use of the Fen Ditton junction.

Certainly radical proposals are needed. I'm on the Science Park and we get regular briefings from the Park management on traffic issues. They are constantly working with consultants and the relevant authorities on improving capacity and flows but at present everything on hold until they can see how the A14 settles down when the current works are completed. One option they have looked at is a cycle or "people mover" route from the back of the Science Park/Regional College under the A14 leading to the Park and Ride.

[Berk]

If you remove access to/from J33, then is there any real need to keep the junction open?? Why not divert the A10 to J34 as well??

[crb11]

I'm not sure you're getting what I'm suggesting, as there wouldn't be any removal of access to J33. The LAR would start with the existing road to Milton from there, with the intent that westbound traffic from the new development would join the A14 there, eastbound at J34.

On the A10, the new road would be at best a 40mph S2 (I'm assuming it would be 30 in practice) which would be a major bottleneck for the A10 traffic, particularly as the hope is it will be dualled soon. You could in theory reroute the A10 east of Milton to a bigger J34 but you're needing a major bridge over the railway and river to do so.

[roadtester]

This probably belongs as well here as anywhere - the Cambridge News has come up with seventeen - yes, seventeen - things it doesn't like about driving in Cambridge.

That the A14 only makes it to number five gives some idea how bad things are...

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... 4-16197976

[Berk]

Can they seriously get any more lorries on the A14?? Judging by recent photos, it looks like 99% of the traffic passing Cambridge is lorries, and the occasional car (1 in 100??).

I thought it bad when I was at school (just over 20 years ago), but this is something else.

[lefthandedspanner]

This probably belongs as well here as anywhere - the Cambridge News has come up with seventeen - yes, seventeen - things it doesn't like about driving in Cambridge.

That the A14 only makes it to number five gives some idea how bad things are...

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... 4-16197976

Blimey, if they think the cloverleaf at Girton is bad they should try driving in the built-up parts of America or Germany.