Bad speed limits

[Duple]

Every 50mph in Cheshire, such victims as the A34 and A54 for no reason.

Also the A34 through Church Lawton which is a 30 originally a 40 and no fatal accidents in 18 years..

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[jimboLL]

Not a specific, but a general: limits jumping from NSL to 30 on the mainline coming into the edge of town...

Especially when the change in limit is placed on a bend, just after the brow of a hill etc.

[ais523]

You're asking for a "buffer zone". I thought these were deprecated these days. Place a reduced speed limit on a piece of open road and it's unlikely that drivers will obey it in the absence of enforcement measures. The restricted road should begin at the edge of the built up area.

That would be fine as long as the 40 zone ended where the 30/restricted zone originally began.

What actually happens is that the buffer zone pushes the restricted limit out into the countryside - anything up to 200 yards extra. So the buffer basically extends nearly ½-mile from the nearest house.

I think the best solution to this general problem is to give warning of a future speed ilmit decrease, without actually reducing the limit. Place a "the limit will be 30 in 300 yards" sign, likewise for 200 and 100 yards, and then place the speed limit reduction in the expected place, which should be just where the houses start. (If you're worried about compliance, you can place a speed camera at the very start of the limit; given the amount of warning, there's no excuse for still going too fast by the time you ge there.) This means that drivers can do the buffer-zoning themself in a reasonable way, and yet aren't forced to go too slowly while they're still a long way from the built up area.

The main problem with this plan is that, as far as I can tell, there's no legally defined "notice of future speed limit decrease" sign (although the general concept is useful enough that some councils have tried to invent their own, typically some sort of cross between a "countdown to exit" sign and a speed limit reminder sign, with the details varying). I think it would be a good idea for one to be officially defined, because otherwise, we're going to continue to have a dangerous mix of people who slow down too early because the signs tell them to, and people who do way more than the posted limit because they know it doesn't have a good reason to be that high over the entire stretch.

[A9NWIL]

Yes and the time spent moving that obstructive vehicle can mean life or death for someone in a burning building.

The fire brigade couldn't get to Grenfell Tower easily because of narrow streets and abandoned cars. I say abandoned because considerate parking is a thing of the past in urban areas.

Im not saying its good that they had to move them, people deserve what they get though if they block the road like that!

[Berk]

You're asking for a "buffer zone". I thought these were deprecated these days. Place a reduced speed limit on a piece of open road and it's unlikely that drivers will obey it in the absence of enforcement measures. The restricted road should begin at the edge of the built up area.

That would be fine as long as the 40 zone ended where the 30/restricted zone originally began.

What actually happens is that the buffer zone pushes the restricted limit out into the countryside - anything up to 200 yards extra. So the buffer basically extends nearly ½-mile from the nearest house.

I think the best solution to this general problem is to give warning of a future speed ilmit decrease, without actually reducing the limit. Place a "the limit will be 30 in 300 yards" sign, likewise for 200 and 100 yards, and then place the speed limit reduction in the expected place, which should be just where the houses start. (If you're worried about compliance, you can place a speed camera at the very start of the limit; given the amount of warning, there's no excuse for still going too fast by the time you ge there.) This means that drivers can do the buffer-zoning themself in a reasonable way, and yet aren't forced to go too slowly while they're still a long way from the built up area.

The main problem with this plan is that, as far as I can tell, there's no legally defined "notice of future speed limit decrease" sign (although the general concept is useful enough that some councils have tried to invent their own, typically some sort of cross between a "countdown to exit" sign and a speed limit reminder sign, with the details varying). I think it would be a good idea for one to be officially defined, because otherwise, we're going to continue to have a dangerous mix of people who slow down too early because the signs tell them to, and people who do way more than the posted limit because they know it doesn't have a good reason to be that high over the entire stretch.

There are such signs, they do exist. Can’t remember where, though. A303 perhaps??

[Graham]

I think the best solution to this general problem is to give warning of a future speed ilmit decrease, without actually reducing the limit. Place a "the limit will be 30 in 300 yards" sign, likewise for 200 and 100 yards, and then place the speed limit reduction in the expected place, which should be just where the houses start. (If you're worried about compliance, you can place a speed camera at the very start of the limit; given the amount of warning, there's no excuse for still going too fast by the time you ge there.) This means that drivers can do the buffer-zoning themself in a reasonable way, and yet aren't forced to go too slowly while they're still a long way from the built up area.

This system is used widely in rural areas of Scotland. I can't think of any examples in England and Wales, and I have no idea why it is not used here, as it makes far more sense than the alternatives.

[jgharston]

Not a specific, but a general: limits jumping from NSL to 30 on the mainline coming into the edge of town...

Especially when the change in limit is placed on a bend, just after the brow of a hill etc.

Yes, previously the limit change was on the Town Council boundary just round the bend. When the industrial estate to the right of the road in the view was expanded (it straddles the boundary) the limit was moved to the edge of the estate, so the signs are visible along the straight stretch. Because I know the road as soon as I see the signs from about 1/4mi away I release the gas and have dropped to 30 by the time I get to them, but all too often I see people going through the signs at 40-50 and using the 1/4mi to the traffic lights as their deceleration lane.

I was SpeedAwareness'd because I came over the brow of a hill straight into a 30, where I'd been flat-pedalling it to get my old Rover up the hill, struggling to do 40 in a 40 zone, and couldn't get my foot off fast enough when the road flattened.

[Helvellyn]

Talking about buffers and extended limits I'm generally against them but this 30 limit would be better starting closer to the camera, certainly on the camera side of the narrowing. There is a warning about the narrowing but it's also just after a bend and crest (turn around in the other direction) and easy to get caught unawares. Luckily most of the traffic there is probably local so is prepared for it.

[Roavin]

There hasn't been a thread on this for a while, and I thought I may aswell start a new one.

On the high side, I'd say this bizzare NSL in East Heslerton on the A64 between Malton and Scarborough I've come across recently. An NSL village with houses on both sides! A rarity nowadays

On the low side, I'd say the unlassified Bishopthorpe Road in York for its ridiculous 20 zone and 'naughty' rural 40.

[NICK 647063]

There hasn't been a thread on this for a while, and I thought I may aswell start a new one.

On the high side, I'd say this bizzare NSL in East Heslerton on the A64 between Malton and Scarborough I've come across recently. An NSL village with houses on both sides! A rarity nowadays

On the low side, I'd say the unlassified Bishopthorpe Road in York for its ridiculous 20 zone and 'naughty' rural 40.

I know the A64 East Heslerton pretty well as I pass through often and even after a few fatal pedestrian accidents locals and the MP tried to get Highways England to reduce the speed limit but after many surveys they simply added a few more signs, also Ganton further along wanted a speed limit but again were refuse which as you say these days is unusual as you only need to look at all the speed limits and roundabouts that we’re added on the A19 south of York after it was detrunked and handed back to the local authority, so sometimes remaining a trunk road stops speed limits getting added.

I’d say one I find low is on the A64 heading into Leeds the 50 limit was reduced to 40 right out past the garden centre as some new houses were added and even more to come yet most still go 50, the 60 limit between there and the A1(M) was reduced to 50 as it was declared a route for concern by Leeds City Council with an accident rate 64% above the national average although I still witness quite a number of accidents on here including a few fatals since it was reduced.

I agree with what you say about the 20 limits in York also Scarcroft Road is painfully slow.

[Roavin]

There hasn't been a thread on this for a while, and I thought I may aswell start a new one.

On the high side, I'd say this bizzare NSL in East Heslerton on the A64 between Malton and Scarborough I've come across recently. An NSL village with houses on both sides! A rarity nowadays

On the low side, I'd say the unlassified Bishopthorpe Road in York for its ridiculous 20 zone and 'naughty' rural 40.

I know the A64 East Heslerton pretty well as I pass through often and even after a few fatal pedestrian accidents locals and the MP tried to get Highways England to reduce the speed limit but after many surveys they simply added a few more signs, also Ganton further along wanted a speed limit but again were refuse which as you say these days is unusual as you only need to look at all the speed limits and roundabouts that we’re added on the A19 south of York after it was detrunked and handed back to the local authority, so sometimes remaining a trunk road stops speed limits getting added.

I’d say one I find low is on the A64 heading into Leeds the 50 limit was reduced to 40 right out past the garden centre as some new houses were added and even more to come yet most still go 50, the 60 limit between there and the A1(M) was reduced to 50 as it was declared a route for concern by Leeds City Council with an accident rate 64% above the national average although I still witness quite a number of accidents on here including a few fatals since it was reduced.

I agree with what you say about the 20 limits in York also Scarcroft Road is painfully slow.

I agree with you about the A64 between the A1(M) and A6210. It's funny how HE refused to even put 50 limits in villages with houses on both sides, yet agrees to put a 50 and even a 40 limit on an almost completely rural sect of literally the same trunk road.

[Jeni]

There hasn't been a thread on this for a while, and I thought I may aswell start a new one.

On the high side, I'd say this bizzare NSL in East Heslerton on the A64 between Malton and Scarborough I've come across recently. An NSL village with houses on both sides! A rarity nowadays

On the low side, I'd say the unlassified Bishopthorpe Road in York for its ridiculous 20 zone and 'naughty' rural 40.

Wouldn't call any of those particularly absurd, if I'm honest!

[Roavin]

There hasn't been a thread on this for a while, and I thought I may aswell start a new one.

On the high side, I'd say this bizzare NSL in East Heslerton on the A64 between Malton and Scarborough I've come across recently. An NSL village with houses on both sides! A rarity nowadays

On the low side, I'd say the unlassified Bishopthorpe Road in York for its ridiculous 20 zone and 'naughty' rural 40.

Wouldn't call any of those particularly absurd, if I'm honest!

Why?

[Jeni]

Why?

absurd
adjective
- utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false:

An NSL road passing a small collection of houses isn't particularly rare, unusual or absurd.

A 20 limit in a town/city on a residential street is also not rare, unusual or absurd.

A 40 limit on a route running between the edge of a city and the next village along is not rare, unusual or absurd.

[trickstat]

Why?

absurd
adjective
- utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false:

An NSL road passing a small collection of houses isn't particularly rare, unusual or absurd.

A 20 limit in a town/city on a residential street is also not rare, unusual or absurd.

A 40 limit on a route running between the edge of a city and the next village along is not rare, unusual or absurd.

Surely the 20 mph difference in limits between the first and third examples is "contrary to all reason or common sense"? The latter is between a city and a village while the former is actually in a village. Just imagine moving into that village and your neighbours from across the road inviting you over for dinner. You might have rather mixed feelings about this friendly gesture.

[Euan]

Last week I was in Lochawe and noticed this very unusual 24mph speed limit on the access road to Cruachan Dam:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.39394 ... 312!8i6656

I wonder how many cyclists end up speeding while they are on the way back down from the reservoir.

[Roavin]

Why?

absurd
adjective
- utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false:

An NSL road passing a small collection of houses isn't particularly rare, unusual or absurd.

A 20 limit in a town/city on a residential street is also not rare, unusual or absurd.

A 40 limit on a route running between the edge of a city and the next village along is not rare, unusual or absurd.

Surely the 20 mph difference in limits between the first and third examples is "contrary to all reason or common sense"? The latter is between a city and a village while the former is actually in a village. Just imagine moving into that village and your neighbours from across the road inviting you over for dinner. You might have rather mixed feelings about this friendly gesture.

Indeed. It is contrary to all reason and common sense to have a reduced 40 limit on a road because it happens to be approaching a city or village but then 60 limit through a village.

Last week I was in Lochawe and noticed this very unusual 24mph speed limit on the access road to Cruachan Dam:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.39394 ... 312!8i6656

I wonder how many cyclists end up speeding while they are on the way back down from the reservoir.

I think that is probably a direct conversion from 40 km/h into mph. Also, I believe that is company property of Scottish Power, and therefore the speed limit is not issued by HE or really enforceable by anyone other than the utilities company itself.

[Chris Bertram]

A 20 limit in a town/city on a residential street is also not rare, unusual or absurd.

Neither rare nor unusual nowadays. But many *are* absurd, being applied to lengthy stretches of road where hazard density is not unusually high - the "blanket limit" approach. If 20 limits were restricted to areas of high hazard density - and preferably applied only during the hours where higher risk levels were in place - then they would command much more respect than they currently do. As it is, when the local cops can't be bothered to obey them, then ordinary motorists might be forgiven for questioning the purpose of those limits.

[haymansafc]

The 50mph limit on the D3 section of the A494 in Deeside continues to frustrate motorists. It's been reduced from NSL for 'environmental' reasons and is widely ignored.

When it was introduced last summer, it was supposed to be a temporary measure that would last eighteen months. To little surprise, despite concerns from locals of the limit being so low considering it being such a major artery to and from North Wales, it's now looking likely to be made permanent.

Please see this article from earlier on this month for more details.

[Roavin]

The 50mph limit on the D3 section of the A494 in Deeside continues to frustrate motorists. It's been reduced from NSL for 'environmental' reasons and is widely ignored.

When it was introduced last summer, it was supposed to be a temporary measure that would last eighteen months. To little surprise, despite concerns from locals of the limit being so low considering it being such a major artery to and from North Wales, it's now looking likely to be made permanent.

Please see this article from earlier on this month for more details.

When these 50 limits on motorways and high-quality dual carriageways are introduced I often wonder whether these councillours and HE officials have ever even been in a car.

A 20 limit in a town/city on a residential street is also not rare, unusual or absurd.

Neither rare nor unusual nowadays. But many *are* absurd, being applied to lengthy stretches of road where hazard density is not unusually high - the "blanket limit" approach. If 20 limits were restricted to areas of high hazard density - and preferably applied only during the hours where higher risk levels were in place - then they would command much more respect than they currently do. As it is, when the local cops can't be @rsed to obey them, then ordinary motorists might be forgiven for questioning the purpose of those limits.

Indeed. It was revealed that there were zero tickets given out in one year to drivers exceeeding 20mph limits in York. What a bloody joke.