"The days of conventional motorways are over"

[lefthandedspanner]

The actual existence of motorways with no hard shoulder is nothing extraordinary. Drive anywhere on the continent and it's common practice. They cope.

Though said motorways tend to be lightly trafficked, or ancient (e.g. A4 in Poland between Wrocław and Legnica, which pre-dates World War II.)

[marconaf]

The days of conventional motorways are over" essentially means we are going to do lots of ALR, online AND offline, rather than just lots of conventional widening, which was the previous (and I would argue rather unsuccessful) policy.

Then this is a stupid, unsafe and shortsighted plan that gives the appearance of progress at the cost of lives and tragedy. Falling for the temptation of it because of the carrots is not a sign of wisdom but of idiotic grouphink led by people who cynically know this but also know they will be beyond accountability by the time it all falls apart.

Again- stopping in a live lane with my kids genuinely terrifies me. Id rather try and punch through or over the barrier. How we have got to this as a planned situation is a damning indictment of our officials.

Please - full widening is not equal to discontinuous HS instead of stupidly spaced ERAs, so that is an obviously false choice.

[bothar]

In urban areas there may be scope for ALR, but with lower speed limits. There is no excuse out of town, the road should be widened.
This policy is dressing up short sighted cost saving as a policy.

[Patrick Harper]

"The days of conventional motorways are over" essentially means we are going to do lots of ALR, online AND offline, rather than just lots of conventional widening, which was the previous (and I would argue rather unsuccessful) policy.

We have always been building ALRs for non-special trunk roads going back to the pre-war era. The A42 is probably the most infamous example. The difference is that now this standard will be acceptable for offline motorways as well.

[fran_c_is]

Meanwhile in an alternate universe:

"The days of the conventional passenger airliner are over, Skyways England chief executive Tim O’Dullivan (not pictured) told Skyways in an exclusive interview.

Designs for new passenger jets will swap passenger seats, seatbelts and associated floatation devices for a cupboard with a dozen stripey parachutes and a host of smart carpet tiles showing passengers where to stand could also become standard.

‘I think the days of conventional airliners are over. I don’t think you will ever see a conventional airliners built with seats again. That is gone. Having emergency parachutes is safer than giving everyone a fixed seat,’ Mr O’Dullivan said.

‘You see the percentage of airliners crashing has fallen over time with new technology, and so we don't believe seatbelts or seats should be needed at all anymore by anyone. This frees up valuable load capacity and reduces fuel costs considerably, enabling us to get many more jets in the air.’

Following his keynote speech at Airfix 2019, Mr O’Dullivan confidently predicted a major shift in public perception as he discussed Airfix’s key theme of technology driving change on airliner specifications.

‘The public feel very uncomfortable without seats, which we have to accept. But I think we will reach a point where people will be uncomfortable with the idea that they are not flying with half a chance of a parachute from the safety cupboard, where they have to buckle up and brace in a seat instead of a fighting over one of the parachutes and desperately trying to strap it on and figuring out how to make it work at the very last moment.’"

[Bryn666]

Don't joke about such things or Ryanair will be straight in there copying it.

[KeithW]

Meanwhile in an alternate universe:

"The days of the conventional passenger airliner are over, Skyways England chief executive Tim O’Dullivan (not pictured) told Skyways in an exclusive interview.

Designs for new passenger jets will swap passenger seats, seatbelts and associated floatation devices for a cupboard with a dozen stripey parachutes and a host of smart carpet tiles showing passengers where to stand could also become standard.

‘I think the days of conventional airliners are over. I don’t think you will ever see a conventional airliners built with seats again. That is gone. Having emergency parachutes is safer than giving everyone a fixed seat,’ Mr O’Dullivan said.

‘You see the percentage of airliners crashing has fallen over time with new technology, and so we don't believe seatbelts or seats should be needed at all anymore by anyone. This frees up valuable load capacity and reduces fuel costs considerably, enabling us to get many more jets in the air.’

Following his keynote speech at Airfix 2019, Mr O’Dullivan confidently predicted a major shift in public perception as he discussed Airfix’s key theme of technology driving change on airliner specifications.

‘The public feel very uncomfortable without seats, which we have to accept. But I think we will reach a point where people will be uncomfortable with the idea that they are not flying with half a chance of a parachute from the safety cupboard, where they have to buckle up and brace in a seat instead of a fighting over one of the parachutes and desperately trying to strap it on and figuring out how to make it work at the very last moment.’"

Meanwhile in this universe the idea was floated by Airbus in 2006, Ryanair and a number of asian airlines then tried again in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ds-newsxml

[Bryn666]

Those who think hard shoulders are safe have obviously forgotten the M40 minibus crash.

13 dead after a driver drifted into the hard shoulder and hit a stationary vehicle on it.

Stopped vehicles are a hazard on a motorway regardless of where they are.

[SarahJ]

I still like the things. My major use of them was on the M20 when the engine on my BMW 7 blew. There was time to drift over to the hard shoulder (well done Serena). The car was out the way and we sat the other side of the barrier until the RAC came and towed us off. (sold the car for Scrap)

[Owain]

I still like the things. My major use of them was on the M20 when the engine on my BMW 7 blew. There was time to drift over to the hard shoulder (well done Serena). The car was out the way and we sat the other side of the barrier until the RAC came and towed us off. (sold the car for Scrap)

Indeed ... my 75 has only broken down once (high-pressure fuel pump failure - I blame BMW!), and it was on the motorway.

I'd quite literally just joined the M4, and was in lane 1 looking to make my way to the outside when all the lights on the dash came on, and the engine cut out. I'm glad I was still in lane 1! No engine power, no power steering, no servo-assisted brakes!! The car weighs 1.5 tonnes plus luggage, and it took some wrestling to steer it leftwards onto the shoulder and then brake to a standstill. It was Christmas Eve and the motorway was busy. I wouldn't have fancied leaving it stranded in a lane used by traffic.

When the RAC guy turned up, I thought it alarming how he worked away merrily on the car with the driver's door and rear door open close to the traffic, and with his rear end and legs often pointing in that direction too as he attempted to identify the fault. The highways guys had put an advisory "50" limit on the warning signs, but even at that speed HGVs can look pretty damned scary when you're standing at the side of the road.

Smart motorways are not the answer, in my view.

[trickstat]

Those who think hard shoulders are safe have obviously forgotten the M40 minibus crash.

13 dead after a driver drifted into the hard shoulder and hit a stationary vehicle on it.

Stopped vehicles are a hazard on a motorway regardless of where they are.

True, but this is why the safety advice is that you get out of the vehicle.

I thought that smart motorways with hard shoulder running at peak times were just an option to be used when widening the motorway was prohibitively expensive or impractical. Not the model for any future motorways or extensions.

[DB617]

Those who think hard shoulders are safe have obviously forgotten the M40 minibus crash.

13 dead after a driver drifted into the hard shoulder and hit a stationary vehicle on it.

Stopped vehicles are a hazard on a motorway regardless of where they are.

True, but this is why the safety advice is that you get out of the vehicle.

I thought that smart motorways with hard shoulder running at peak times were just an option to be used when widening the motorway was prohibitively expensive or impractical. Not the model for any future motorways or extensions.

Is the A14(M) being built as ALR or DxM? That would indicate HE's direction at the moment.

[Patrick Harper]

Those who think hard shoulders are safe have obviously forgotten the M40 minibus crash.

13 dead after a driver drifted into the hard shoulder and hit a stationary vehicle on it.

Stopped vehicles are a hazard on a motorway regardless of where they are.

Stopped vehicles are a greater hazard in an active traffic lane than they are in a hard shoulder, especially when those working at control centres fail to spot them in time and update the signs.

[Chris5156]

I thought that smart motorways with hard shoulder running at peak times were just an option to be used when widening the motorway was prohibitively expensive or impractical. Not the model for any future motorways or extensions.

Is the A14(M) being built as ALR or DxM? That would indicate HE's direction at the moment.

D3 ALR. Highways England doesn’t build hard shoulders any more.

Part-time hard shoulder running is also out - new installations do not use HSR. The hard shoulder is just converted into a permanent running lane.

[trickstat]

Those who think hard shoulders are safe have obviously forgotten the M40 minibus crash.

13 dead after a driver drifted into the hard shoulder and hit a stationary vehicle on it.

Stopped vehicles are a hazard on a motorway regardless of where they are.

Stopped vehicles are a greater hazard in an active traffic lane than they are in a hard shoulder, especially when those working at control centres fail to spot them in time and update the signs.

Large, slow-moving loads tend to be accompanied by motorcycle outriders or escort vehicles and lots of flashing lights largely so that faster-moving vehicles are aware of their presence. This is despite them being large and therefore relatively easy to spot. A small broken-down car in an active lane is both not moving at all and quite difficult to see from any distance even with its 'hazards' on.

[ChrisH]

The only time I've needed a hard shoulder was when our car blew a tyre, driving along a French motorway. It was notable that the emergency phones are located within a refuge area within the hard shoulder - so you are doubly offset from any passing traffic (even though typically French motorways are quieter than English ones).

I understand the economic and statistical reasons for HE's policy but I think it fundamentally misunderstands the interactions between perception of safety, opportunities and costs, and the role of "urban" design in influencing people's thoughts and actions.

The miles of barriered off carriageway on new sections of smart motorway where there could easily (and cheaply) have been a discontinuous hard shoulder, much deeper emergency refuge areas, or even soft verges, creates a feeling of nervousness that is not conducive to safety, perception of safety, or customer service.

[DB617]

Large, slow-moving loads tend to be accompanied by motorcycle outriders or escort vehicles and lots of flashing lights largely so that faster-moving vehicles are aware of their presence. This is despite them being large and therefore relatively easy to spot. A small broken-down car in an active lane is both not moving at all and quite difficult to see from any distance even with its 'hazards' on.

Not to mention that total electrical failure, one of the potential causes of not being able to reach an ERA (alternator failure followed by battery death) is going to leave you with no hazards or lighting. On an HS you have at least a good chance of people not hitting you, as they would nominally not be driving in the hard shoulder. If a live lane is your escape place on an unlit smart motorway, you're almost invisible to drivers and CCTV operators. If I had a total electrical failure on a smart motorway I'd be out of the car and running to reach safety assuming the car is going to get ploughed at near enough NSL. If I had kids or animals with me, it's unthinkable.

As a smart equipment technician myself, I can't massively oppose smartening, but I do oppose austerity which causes that smartening to become dangerous. I don't believe smart motorways have to be so basic and traditional in their safety measures (being largely unchanged since the early 2000s inception). People are going to die, and 'not less safe than a conventional motorway' from HE is not good enough in this world where public bodies are often seen to be pursuing 'all accidents preventable' strategies.

D3 ALR. Highways England doesn’t build hard shoulders any more.

Part-time hard shoulder running is also out - new installations do not use HSR. The hard shoulder is just converted into a permanent running lane.

Thanks. I wonder whether the region control centre will have its number of desks or technology increased to deal with the larger geographical area. I think no. This is where problems are going to happen, and people will just want them ripped out (impossible) rather than fixed (which challenges egos so unlikely). I think it's probable that a D3ALR will experience more issues than a D4ALR because there is simply less panic room. HGVs suddenly having to make an exit from Lane 1 are displacing traffic into space that's more likely to be occupied - not like the A14(M) is not going to be as busy as a lot of D4s.

[Stevie D]

I thought that smart motorways with hard shoulder running at peak times were just an option to be used when widening the motorway was prohibitively expensive or impractical. Not the model for any future motorways or extensions.

The first examples of smart motorways were experimental ways to increase capacity at busy times with dynamic hard-shoulder running, as being cheaper than a proper widening scheme. More recent installations, and all future planned schemes, use full-time all-lane running, because this is deemed safer than having the confusion over whether the hard shoulder is acting as a hard shoulder or a running lane.

It appears now that an ALR smart motorway with all the tech is (possibly? probably?) safer than a traditional non-tech motorway with a hard shoulder. It is likely that they are cheaper to build as well. Yes, a motorway with a permanent hard shoulder and smart tech is probably safer still, but if the additional costs of building and maintaining it don't stack up in terms of the incidents it would be likely to prevent then we don't do it.

[Johnathan404]

I was thinking the other day, if we were building a motorway from scratch, would it be possible to have a hard strip and then some-sort of hard standing, like the sort used to park maintenance vehicles on? That way it would be possible to get out of the way in an emergency but it should be off-putting enough to stop all but the most determined idiot from abusing it.

Though it'd probably take a lot of work to design one which isn't destroyed the moment a lorry goes near it.

[mikehindsonevans]

Those who think hard shoulders are safe have obviously forgotten the M40 minibus crash.

13 dead after a driver drifted into the hard shoulder and hit a stationary vehicle on it.

Stopped vehicles are a hazard on a motorway regardless of where they are.

Stopped vehicles are a greater hazard in an active traffic lane than they are in a hard shoulder, especially when those working at control centres fail to spot them in time and update the signs.

Hang on!
That M40 tragedy occurred when a tired schoolteacher driving a Transit, configured with the then-legal "crew bus" configuration (basically benches either side) drifted off on the long curve, enroute back after a theatre trip after a school day.

The motorway maintenance lorry had been out in Lane Three ( then a common way of working) and had pulled onto the hard shoulder to report in to Motorway Control at the emergency phone with its impact cushion undeployed.

Several lessons were learned...