Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

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Bryn666
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 20:36 TfL/Mayor of London, or their predecessors, have long managed river crossings because the bulk of them span between multiple boroughs. Hammersmith may physically own the bridge currently but it's Richmond on the south side and it was a complete toss-up (almost literally) in 1985 when the GLC, bridge owner until then, was abolished, for who was going to get it. Were it not for the name I would have said that the Richmond side residents get much the greater advantage from it. For a lot of Barnes and Roehampton etc Hammersmith was their principal shopping centre, transport node, place to get taxis home from the Underground station, etc.
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/201 ... e%20bridge.

According to this, Hammersmith and Fulham are responsible for the bridge. Maybe you should tell them that TfL are?
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by WHBM »

I think I've explained the setup adequately above. It's similar to traffic signals in London. Despite the bulk of them being on borough-owned roads, they are all managed, maintained and controlled by TfL.
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Bryn666
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 23:33 I think I've explained the setup adequately above. It's similar to traffic signals in London. Despite the bulk of them being on borough-owned roads, they are all managed, maintained and controlled by TfL.
No, it clearly says LBHF are the highway authority - TfL can offer advice, they can say what they would like doing because of their bus services crossing it, but it's not their bridge. It isn't on the TfL network.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-base-map-master.pdf
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and ... -s-bridges
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-bridges-authority.pdf

That shows clearly which bridges are part of TfL's network and Hammersmith ain't it. It's not 1985 any more, the GLC is long gone and any arrangements they had with it.
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KeithW
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 20:03 You're missing the point entirely of what has been said. The last road bridge to be replaced in central London was London Bridge in 1970. The only capacity improvements for crossing the river since 1970 without using a train or cable car or being expected to dismount have been the replacement of an existing footbridge (Hungerford), the Millennium Jelly, and the QE2 Bridge. And Tower Bridge is supposed to be the principal road crossing to avoid paying the CCZ, so it is doubly stupid that a bascule bridge with a 17t weight limit is the main route across the city centre. That is exactly what KeithW would describe as a turkey.
Actually I wouldn't describe it as a turkey from the simple reason it does what is intended to do and for a 19th century bascule bridge 18 tons is very respectable, it can handle pretty much everything except HGV's. The limit is in fact precautionary and intended to reduce long term damage to the bridge, it has carried much larger loads quite safely. Before 2006 there was no weight limit. In one night after the limit was imposed no less than 14 HGV's crossed the bridge and got the prize of a nice large fine, typically £300 or so.

Underneath the stone cladding Tower Bridge is modern steel structure with concrete foundations.
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ChrisH
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

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WHBM wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 23:33 I think I've explained the setup adequately above. It's similar to traffic signals in London. Despite the bulk of them being on borough-owned roads, they are all managed, maintained and controlled by TfL.
No, it is not analagous to traffic signals, which are (as you say) controlled from TfL's traffic control centre.

TfL spent money on Hammersmith Bridge because (a) TfL funds road projects across all the London local authorities, and (b) TfL buses run across the bridge. It categorically is not a TfL road or structure.
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

ChrisH wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 09:21
No, it is not analagous to traffic signals, which are (as you say) controlled from TfL's traffic control centre.

TfL spent money on Hammersmith Bridge because (a) TfL funds road projects across all the London local authorities, and (b) TfL buses run across the bridge. It categorically is not a TfL road or structure.
As I understand it when the GLA was abolished there was an option for councils to either take control of the bridge or for it to pass to TfL. Hammersmith & Fulham Council opted to take ownership, the problem is they have insufficient funds or expertise to do so. In 2019 they started to repair it but every time they looked at it the position was found to be worse that expected. The council then announced that the repair was beyond its resources and the DfT got involved

So fast forward to September 2020 and the new Hammersmith Task Force was convened which consisted of the DfT, TfL and the council.

Here is the plan announced in October
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hammersmith-bridge-taskforce-meeting-1-october-2020 wrote: The third meeting of the Hammersmith Bridge Taskforce was held today, Thursday 1 October. It was chaired by Transport Minister, Baroness Vere and attendees included the Project Director Dana Skelley plus representatives from the London Boroughs of Hammersmith and Fulham and Richmond upon Thames, the Greater London Authority, TfL, and the Port of London Authority.

Dana Skelley, speaking on behalf of the Hammersmith Bridge Taskforce group, said:

The taskforce has made significant progress on the next steps for the Hammersmith Bridge. In particular, the taskforce agreed a ferry service across the river would be the preferred transport solution to deliver a crossing for residents in the short-term and we are working quickly to have a service in place by early next year.

All other potential solutions, including a temporary bridge, remain under consideration to ensure the fastest possible resolution for those impacted by the closure of the bridge. TfL also continues to keep the enhanced local bus services under review to respond to changing demands. The taskforce fully understands the complexity of the issues surrounding the pathway to a long-term solution.

To add to the team of leading experts providing advice to the group, Cambridge Professor and mechanics and materials expert, Norman Fleck, has also been engaged to support the work. Norman will join next week’s taskforce meeting.

Work will now continue to urgently progress the temporary transport plans, and other work related to the bridge and river closure, with the taskforce due to reconvene next week where funding options will be discussed.

The Hammersmith Bridge Taskforce was set up by the Department for Transport in September 2020 to work towards safely reopening the Hammersmith Bridge. The taskforce is chaired by Baroness Vere and includes representatives from TfL, London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, London Borough of Richmond upon Thames, Network Rail, the Greater London Authority and the Port of London Authority.

Hammersmith & Fulham Council have now unilaterally produced yet another cunning plan seemingly without consulting the Task Force or TfL which is guaranteed to cause ructions and in all probability further delays given that TfL had put plans in place for a temporary bridge.
Until 13 August 2020, the bridge successfully stayed open to pedestrians and cyclists allowing vital access to transport links north of the river. However, allowing access does limit the pace at which restoration works can be done. To address this, TfL are proposing to install a temporary walking and cycling bridge.

The proposed temporary bridge is a seven-metre-wide, prefabricated steel structure, supported by two piers in the river. The bridge would be step free and have a 5.5-metre-wide carriageway for pedestrians and cyclists. It would be accessed by shallow ramps from Queen Caroline Street on the north bank and from close to the junction of Castelnau and Riverview Gardens on the south bank.
A wonderful example of how to muddy the waters and make things worse.
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

So after a little digging I found the minutes for the meeting of the Hammersmith Bridge Task Force on 27 Nov where the new proposals were presented to the task force which agreed to see if they were compatible with the ongoing work, This is rather important with work due to start on the pedestals on which the bridge sits this week and plans are in place to provide a temporary ferry for cyclists and pedestrians. in the new year
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hamm ... ember-2020

The next meeting is scheduled next Friday and I would love to be a fly on the wall. Doing an end run around your partners by making the whole thing public is a high risk strategy. The current make up of the group is TfL, London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, London Borough of Richmond upon Thames, Network Rail, the Greater London Authority and the Port of London Authority.
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Scratchwood »

KeithW wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:54
ChrisH wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 09:21
No, it is not analagous to traffic signals, which are (as you say) controlled from TfL's traffic control centre.

TfL spent money on Hammersmith Bridge because (a) TfL funds road projects across all the London local authorities, and (b) TfL buses run across the bridge. It categorically is not a TfL road or structure.
As I understand it when the GLA was abolished there was an option for councils to either take control of the bridge or for it to pass to TfL. Hammersmith & Fulham Council opted to take ownership, the problem is they have insufficient funds or expertise to do so. In 2019 they started to repair it but every time they looked at it the position was found to be worse that expected. The council then announced that the repair was beyond its resources and the DfT got involved

So fast forward to September 2020 and the new Hammersmith Task Force was convened which consisted of the DfT, TfL and the council.

Here is the plan announced in October
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hammersmith-bridge-taskforce-meeting-1-october-2020 wrote: The third meeting of the Hammersmith Bridge Taskforce was held today, Thursday 1 October. It was chaired by Transport Minister, Baroness Vere and attendees included the Project Director Dana Skelley plus representatives from the London Boroughs of Hammersmith and Fulham and Richmond upon Thames, the Greater London Authority, TfL, and the Port of London Authority.

Dana Skelley, speaking on behalf of the Hammersmith Bridge Taskforce group, said:

The taskforce has made significant progress on the next steps for the Hammersmith Bridge. In particular, the taskforce agreed a ferry service across the river would be the preferred transport solution to deliver a crossing for residents in the short-term and we are working quickly to have a service in place by early next year.

All other potential solutions, including a temporary bridge, remain under consideration to ensure the fastest possible resolution for those impacted by the closure of the bridge. TfL also continues to keep the enhanced local bus services under review to respond to changing demands. The taskforce fully understands the complexity of the issues surrounding the pathway to a long-term solution.

To add to the team of leading experts providing advice to the group, Cambridge Professor and mechanics and materials expert, Norman Fleck, has also been engaged to support the work. Norman will join next week’s taskforce meeting.

Work will now continue to urgently progress the temporary transport plans, and other work related to the bridge and river closure, with the taskforce due to reconvene next week where funding options will be discussed.

The Hammersmith Bridge Taskforce was set up by the Department for Transport in September 2020 to work towards safely reopening the Hammersmith Bridge. The taskforce is chaired by Baroness Vere and includes representatives from TfL, London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, London Borough of Richmond upon Thames, Network Rail, the Greater London Authority and the Port of London Authority.

Hammersmith & Fulham Council have now unilaterally produced yet another cunning plan seemingly without consulting the Task Force or TfL which is guaranteed to cause ructions and in all probability further delays given that TfL had put plans in place for a temporary bridge.
Until 13 August 2020, the bridge successfully stayed open to pedestrians and cyclists allowing vital access to transport links north of the river. However, allowing access does limit the pace at which restoration works can be done. To address this, TfL are proposing to install a temporary walking and cycling bridge.

The proposed temporary bridge is a seven-metre-wide, prefabricated steel structure, supported by two piers in the river. The bridge would be step free and have a 5.5-metre-wide carriageway for pedestrians and cyclists. It would be accessed by shallow ramps from Queen Caroline Street on the north bank and from close to the junction of Castelnau and Riverview Gardens on the south bank.
A wonderful example of how to muddy the waters and make things worse.
When the GLC was abolished in 1985, there was no replacement body to take over non trunk road bridges, they went to one of the 2 councils on either side.
TfL was created along with the GLA in 2000, in retrospect it would have been a good idea for TfL/GLA to have taken over the bridges, but it didn't happen
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

Scratchwood wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 13:00
When the GLC was abolished in 1985, there was no replacement body to take over non trunk road bridges, they went to one of the 2 councils on either side.
TfL was created along with the GLA in 2000, in retrospect it would have been a good idea for TfL/GLA to have taken over the bridges, but it didn't happen
The Greater London Authority was indeed created in 2000, here is the long title of the enabling act.
An Act to establish and make provision about the Greater London Authority, the Mayor of London and the London Assembly; to make provision in relation to London borough councils and the Common Council of the City of London with respect to matters consequential on the establishment of the Greater London Authority; to make provision with respect to the functions of other local authorities and statutory bodies exercising functions in Greater London; to make provision about transport and road traffic in and around Greater London; to make provision about policing in Greater London and to make an adjustment of the metropolitan police district; and for connected purposes.
The highlights are mine.

The act made it possible for either Borough Councils to manage the roads and bridges or for the GLA. The mechanism for looking after these at the GLA level is London Streets which is part of TfL.

TfL manage the following bridges, as I recall they receive some funding through Bridge House Estates which is a registered charity.
Westminster Bridge
London Bridge
Tower Bridge
Vauxhall Bridge
Lambeth Bridge
Blackfriars Bridge

The others were taken over by local boroughs, if a bridge crossed between boroughs financial responsibility could be divided between them.

When it comes to roads TfL is responsible for traffic lights and manages the London Road Network see this map
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-base-map-master.pdf

Other roads are maintained by the borough councils, note that the road over Hammersmith Bridge is not on the London Road Network.
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by owen b »

New government-commissioned reports raise prospect of limited reopening of Hammersmith Bridge
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... ith-bridge

"The reports recommend LBHF and its consultants reconsider whether the bridge can be reopened, albeit with restrictions, in its current state to pedestrians, cyclists and river traffic. Further mitigation measures will be needed. These include blast-cleaning the paint from the 2 remaining pedestals so that any hidden fractures can be identified, as well as potentially installing further monitoring equipment."
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by ChrisH »

The bridge is reopening to pedestrians and cyclists, and river traffic underneath, from this weekend.

Notably this means that the plans to introduce a ferry, which have been talked about for nearly a year, will presumably never be put into place. A resounding failure of procurement for TfL, DfT and the local boroughs.
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

ChrisH wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 09:34 The bridge is reopening to pedestrians and cyclists, and river traffic underneath, from this weekend.

Notably this means that the plans to introduce a ferry, which have been talked about for nearly a year, will presumably never be put into place. A resounding failure of procurement for TfL, DfT and the local boroughs.
That rather depends on what the long term plan is. They seem to have established that the bridge is unlikely to collapse in the short term but a long term fix is still needed to allow public transport to work properly and allow some degree of other traffic to use it even if its only delivery vehicles.
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by WHBM »

ChrisH wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 09:34 The bridge is reopening to pedestrians and cyclists, and river traffic underneath, from this weekend.

Notably this means that the plans to introduce a ferry, which have been talked about for nearly a year, will presumably never be put into place. A resounding failure of procurement for TfL, DfT and the local boroughs.
Quite so. It also means they have squandered the time and money of the several organisations (in particular river boat operators) who they asked for tenders from. Yes, that is one of the things about tendering for work, but public organisations are far more wasteful about other people's time and money than comparable commercial situations. And quite why it has taken a year to realise it was OK for pedestrians after all is pretty poor. It's not the most challenging of situations for a structural engineer. Maybe it was insisted that any professional engineering staff had to do a complete set of Diversity and Equality courses, otherwise they would obviously be no good ...
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Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

WHBM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:07 Quite so. It also means they have squandered the time and money of the several organisations (in particular river boat operators) who they asked for tenders from. Yes, that is one of the things about tendering for work, but public organisations are far more wasteful about other people's time and money than comparable commercial situations. And quite why it has taken a year to realise it was OK for pedestrians after all is pretty poor. It's not the most challenging of situations for a structural engineer. Maybe it was insisted that any professional engineering staff had to do a complete set of Diversity and Equality courses, otherwise they would obviously be no good ...
Actually I would describe it as very challenging if I had to survey it. Amongst the critical structures are the saddles to which the chains are attached which are known to be cracked and basically carry the whole weight of the bridge and any traffic on it. A secondary issue was the suspension chains which have very little redundancy. If one of the bolts joining the links together failed the consequences could be serious. Extensive investigation was carried out to assure they were safe which actually included grinding out the cracks in the pedestals and doing any repairs in situ.

In 2019 so concerned were inspectors that acoustic monitoring systems were installed to detect any crack propagation and in 2020 they were triggered. That forced the closure of the bridge for safety reasons. The saddles were manufactured from cast iron which is strong in compression but not a good material to be placed under tensile loads which they have to carry. Worse they are seriously overloaded as they were designed to carry horse drawn traffic not 20 ton buses.

Then there were the know problems with the bearings and cast iron pillars. This bridge is a sick puppy. Now it can be argued that complete closure was an overreaction but after the catastrophes with the Morandi Bridge in Italy and the I-35 W bridge collapse in in Minneapolis that is rather understandable.

For chapter and verse read
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... ssible.pdf
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