Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
multiraider2
Member
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 17:42
Location: London, SE

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by multiraider2 »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 09:14
Al__S wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 08:45 Don't forget the political aspects- the government seem to be keen to blame the Labour run council (although the Conservatives ran it 2006-2014) whilst some Conservative Assembly Members seem to be joining in with the cabbies that blame Sadiq Khan, whilst it suits the council to point and go "we've got no money because of the government".
Further underlines the point that all of our political overlords should be rounded up and fired into the sun via one of Elon Musk's spacecraft prototypes.
Joseph de Maistre had it right: "Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite." On that basis, we all deserve to be fired into the sun. It's clear that this would be much, much better for the planet. Re the bridge, the situation now is analogous to us visiting a doctor and him or her telling us all not to make any long-term plans. So it doesn't really matter either way or if they just leave it to rot, as that will be the situation with everything else soon enough. Let the endgames begin.
User avatar
Debaser
Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 16:57

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:37 Now as a long term member of the National Trust I am all in favour of maintaining historical structures but I believe we have to draw the line where transport infrastructure and safety is concerned. Its time to replace this turkey with something that can meet the needs of the 21st century rather than the 19th. You can make it look like the drawbridge for Camelot if you like as long as you use modern maintainable materials and methods.
This is the only bit I take issue with in your post. Something that has lasted 133 years, half of which time it will have been subjected to loads the designer will not have imagined, cannot be described as a turkey.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

Debaser wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 16:56
This is the only bit I take issue with in your post. Something that has lasted 133 years, half of which time it will have been subjected to loads the designer will not have imagined, cannot be described as a turkey.
Its an accurate description, the turkey is a bird that cant fly, this is a bridge that cannot carry traffic, sure its attractive but its a one off, there are good reasons why no other bridge in the UK was built this way. By all means rebuild something to take its place, it can even look like the existing structure. I ventured that a repair will require the total dismantling of the bridge. This video I found rather reinforces that view.



Repairing it would be an interesting project. I suspect that the first thing that will need to be done is to bring in a barge and lifting equipment and remove the deck. This would enable it to be renovated on dry land and then remove the chains for inspection. Wrought iron chains with link pins holding them together that have not been inspected for 120 years worry me for obvious reasons.

The video makes it clear just how hard to inspect let alone maintain it is. The towers being wrought iron may be reusable but if the cast iron sections are cracked as it seems I would suggest replacing them with modern steel versions. These could be just as ornate but rather less chunky , note how much the existing ones narrow the carriageways.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.48748 ... 312!8i6656

While we are looking at streetview take a look at close look at the suspension chains.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.48759 ... 312!8i6656

Note that a single pin passes through the chain, a failure of any one of these pins would halve the load carrying capability of the bridge on that side. This is not good when the bridge is carrying more load than it was designed for. At a minimum any new pin would be of higher strength than was available in the 19th century and could be hollow to allow ultrasound inspection.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.48759 ... 312!8i6656

This view from 2015 shows the patchwork quilt that is the wooden deck.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.48807 ... 312!8i6656

Turning round we can see how blocky the suspension towers are and as a result how narrow the carriageway is. I bet those expansion joints are a pain to maintain as well. Depending on the results of an eyes wide open survey it may be possible to save the towers but I thing a modern deck is a must. Architectural details such as the balustrades can be removed but lets have a road deck that can handle modern traffic. Removing the deck for replacement/refurbishment would take the dead load off the chains and would probably speed things up without adding to the cost.

In any event lets not kid ourselves, this is something that will take years to complete, in the meantime I suspect a temporary bridge will be needed. Simply refurbishing the existing structure would take us back to 1973 when it was last done and allowing modern traffic on it again would result in a future recurrence, it would still be a weak bridge.

This video from the 1970's when it was last repaired show just how much traffic volumes have grown.


Watch carefully and you will note that back then the max load allowed was 5 tons. 2 minutes 20 seconds in.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Chris5156 »

KeithW wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 17:17Depending on the results of an eyes wide open survey it may be possible to save the towers but I thing a modern deck is a must. Architectural details such as the balustrades can be removed but lets have a road deck that can handle modern traffic. Removing the deck for replacement/refurbishment would take the dead load off the chains and would probably speed things up without adding to the cost.
The Albert Bridge, not far away along the Thames, was a similar headache for many years. It's still not perfect, but the fix adopted in the 1970s was to add a new pier mid-stream, so there is now a support in the middle of the river and the load on its suspension chains is much reduced.

I wonder if a sensible fix at Hammersmith, which would enable the appearance of the bridge to remain largely unchanged, could be to insert a new pier mid-river in the same way. Unlike the Albert Bridge, though, I'd then replace the whole bridge deck with a new structure using tried-and-tested modern methods - namely steel beams resting on the abutments, existing piers and new mid-stream pier. A concrete deck could then be laid on top.

The towers, chains and other features could then be kept as ornamentation without having to bear any structural load. It would look a bit different from below, with a much deeper bridge deck, but from above - which is where most people see it - it would look effectively the same.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 18:26
The Albert Bridge, not far away along the Thames, was a similar headache for many years. It's still not perfect, but the fix adopted in the 1970s was to add a new pier mid-stream, so there is now a support in the middle of the river and the load on its suspension chains is much reduced.

I wonder if a sensible fix at Hammersmith, which would enable the appearance of the bridge to remain largely unchanged, could be to insert a new pier mid-river in the same way. Unlike the Albert Bridge, though, I'd then replace the whole bridge deck with a new structure using tried-and-tested modern methods - namely steel beams resting on the abutments, existing piers and new mid-stream pier. A concrete deck could then be laid on top.

The towers, chains and other features could then be kept as ornamentation without having to bear any structural load. It would look a bit different from below, with a much deeper bridge deck, but from above - which is where most people see it - it would look effectively the same.
Its certainly along the same lines as I was thinking , the central pier could be used with a temporary bridge while the refurbishment is happening. They can be very long indeed with pontoons or temporary piers. This WW2 era Bailey Bridge in Libya was still in use as late as 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey_br ... _Libya.JPG
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by A303Chris »

Latest update from working group, saying bridge will not open to traffic to 2027 and the temporary ferry for pedestrians and cyclists will not be ready to April next year
The M25 - The road to nowhere
User avatar
thatapanydude
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 21:35
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by thatapanydude »

7 years !! They must be having a laugh. I would have said maybe 2 years 3 at a push if funding is available but an opening in 2027 is quite frankly disappointing and lacking total ambition.

Likewise with the suggestion of a toll, bar traffic for St Paul’s and Barnes (who would in any case we can assume get a resident discount) who would pay to use it with other free crossings close by.

If this is all they can come up with then they may as well just leave it as a pedestrian/cycle bridge.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
Al__S
Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Al__S »

Pretty hilarious that the government did all this huffing and puffing about getting a DfT taskforce to speed things up and... it'll still be many years.
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9696
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by WHBM »

Looking at the span, a Bailey Bridge alongside for the interim seems to be quite practical, possibly with a mid-river pier, although TfL of course would want to make it bikes only. I'm sure hardly anybody who sends their children to St Paul's School would vote for Khan anyway. When it's low tide you can almost see the bottom there mid-stream. It's not as if there is any significant commercial river traffic. Military doubtless have the sections in store and will stick it up in a weekend.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

Al__S wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 20:07 Pretty hilarious that the government did all this huffing and puffing about getting a DfT taskforce to speed things up and... it'll still be many years.
Thats what happens when you try and repair a one off listed bridge like this when everything is damaged. Knock the thing down and start again and Cleveland Bridge could put a new modern bridge in place within a couple of years but we have gone so overboard on the heritage jag that practicality, durability and cost no longer matter. Note I am no compulsive moderniser but after 7 years and £80 to 100 million what they will get is another weak bridge with a limited life span. As far as I can see they will have to dismantle the whole thing , take it to another site , repair what is repairable, replicate everything else and then re-erect it.
fras
Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by fras »

OK, so if you live in the Barnes "salient" it is inconvenient as you have to drive to either Kew Bridge, or Putney Bridge, depending on your destination; not too much of a hardship, but what happens about the bus routes over the bridge ? Are the routes split and people have to walk over the bridge ?
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Bryn666 »

Restoring the bus and pedestrian/cycle links is a huge priority that a 2027 opening date can't deliver.

The fact is London has not taken river crossings seriously at all and treats them as fancy museum pieces and part of the godawful MERRIE OL LAAAAHNDAN schtick that Americans might find endearing but anyone who has to actually spend more than a day in the godforsaken place has no time for.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
fras
Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by fras »

fras wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 22:52 OK, so if you live in the Barnes "salient" it is inconvenient as you have to drive to either Chiswick Bridge, or Putney Bridge, depending on your destination; not too much of a hardship, but what happens about the bus routes over the bridge ? Are the routes split and people have to walk over the bridge ?
Sorry, should have looked around more. There is now a revised route Barnes-Hammersmith via Chsiwick Bridge, every 30 minutes.

https://www.eastsheenvillage.co.uk/buse ... e-closure/
mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Debaser wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 16:56
KeithW wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:37 Now as a long term member of the National Trust I am all in favour of maintaining historical structures but I believe we have to draw the line where transport infrastructure and safety is concerned. Its time to replace this turkey with something that can meet the needs of the 21st century rather than the 19th. You can make it look like the drawbridge for Camelot if you like as long as you use modern maintainable materials and methods.
This is the only bit I take issue with in your post. Something that has lasted 133 years, half of which time it will have been subjected to loads the designer will not have imagined, cannot be described as a turkey.
I missed this thread before. 133 years is not bad, when you consider that modern infrastructures (with the current HS2 construction as a case in point) is designed for a 120-year working life.

However, from a 5ton weight limit in the 1970s, it is time to pension off this old asset and get London moving.

It deserves to be more than an embarrassing political football. Embarrassing, that is, in terms of our views of the political posturing whilst London stalls. I cycle so I can see the naive attraction to "on yer bike", but we have many less able citizens, for whom fully-accessible buses since 2005 are not a luxury but an absolute necessity - and a right!

Mike
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by KeithW »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 06:33 I missed this thread before. 133 years is not bad, when you consider that modern infrastructures (with the current HS2 construction as a case in point) is designed for a 120-year working life.

However, from a 5ton weight limit in the 1970s, it is time to pension off this old asset and get London moving.

It deserves to be more than an embarrassing political football. Embarrassing, that is, in terms of our views of the political posturing whilst London stalls. I cycle so I can see the naive attraction to "on yer bike", but we have many less able citizens, for whom fully-accessible buses since 2005 are not a luxury but an absolute necessity - and a right!

Mike
Well most railways have lasted rather longer than 120 years, ECML trains are still using the High Level Bridge in Newcastle 170 years after it opened. The thing with Hammersmith Bridge has always been that form overrides function and it has been troublesome for at least 50 years. In the early 1970's it required replacement steel trusses, improvements to the mid-span hangers and new deck expansion joints. New deck timbers were installed and surfacing was changed from wooden blocks to coated plywood panels. These panels were subsequently replaced in 1987. Quite who decided on plywood is not made clear. The bottom line is that there have been weight restrictions and frequent patching up for the best part of 50 years. I think the DfT, TfL and Hammersmith and Fulham Council need to choose between having an ornament or a bridge.
User avatar
RichardA35
Committee Member
Posts: 5691
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by RichardA35 »

KeithW wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:10
mikehindsonevans wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 06:33 I missed this thread before. 133 years is not bad, when you consider that modern infrastructures (with the current HS2 construction as a case in point) is designed for a 120-year working life.

However, from a 5ton weight limit in the 1970s, it is time to pension off this old asset and get London moving.

It deserves to be more than an embarrassing political football. Embarrassing, that is, in terms of our views of the political posturing whilst London stalls. I cycle so I can see the naive attraction to "on yer bike", but we have many less able citizens, for whom fully-accessible buses since 2005 are not a luxury but an absolute necessity - and a right!

Mike
Well most railways have lasted rather longer than 120 years, ECML trains are still using the High Level Bridge in Newcastle 170 years after it opened. The thing with Hammersmith Bridge has always been that form overrides function and it has been troublesome for at least 50 years. In the early 1970's it required replacement steel trusses, improvements to the mid-span hangers and new deck expansion joints. New deck timbers were installed and surfacing was changed from wooden blocks to coated plywood panels. These panels were subsequently replaced in 1987. Quite who decided on plywood is not made clear. The bottom line is that there have been weight restrictions and frequent patching up for the best part of 50 years. I think the DfT, TfL and Hammersmith and Fulham Council need to choose between having an ornament or a bridge.
Spaffing your budget on an imaginary bridge leaves you less to spend on real ones...
fras
Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by fras »

Is there room to build another, modern bridge alongside like at Conwy, where Telfords suspension bridge was bypassed in the 50s with the current bridge ? Incidentally, in about 1944, my father drove a 3-ton truck over the Telford bridge at night with full black-out. It was part of their driving test before they went off to France and Belgium.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.28099 ... 8192?hl=en
User avatar
JammyDodge
Member
Posts: 483
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 13:17

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by JammyDodge »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 18:26
KeithW wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 17:17Depending on the results of an eyes wide open survey it may be possible to save the towers but I thing a modern deck is a must. Architectural details such as the balustrades can be removed but lets have a road deck that can handle modern traffic. Removing the deck for replacement/refurbishment would take the dead load off the chains and would probably speed things up without adding to the cost.
The Albert Bridge, not far away along the Thames, was a similar headache for many years. It's still not perfect, but the fix adopted in the 1970s was to add a new pier mid-stream, so there is now a support in the middle of the river and the load on its suspension chains is much reduced.

I wonder if a sensible fix at Hammersmith, which would enable the appearance of the bridge to remain largely unchanged, could be to insert a new pier mid-river in the same way. Unlike the Albert Bridge, though, I'd then replace the whole bridge deck with a new structure using tried-and-tested modern methods - namely steel beams resting on the abutments, existing piers and new mid-stream pier. A concrete deck could then be laid on top.

The towers, chains and other features could then be kept as ornamentation without having to bear any structural load. It would look a bit different from below, with a much deeper bridge deck, but from above - which is where most people see it - it would look effectively the same.
I think as Chris says, the best solution would be to replace the bridge with a modern deck and support, with the existing structure becoming ornaments
Designing Tomorrow, Around the Past
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9696
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 22:55 Restoring the bus and pedestrian/cycle links is a huge priority that a 2027 opening date can't deliver.

The fact is London has not taken river crossings seriously at all and treats them as fancy museum pieces and part of the godawful MERRIE OL LAAAAHNDAN schtick that Americans might find endearing but anyone who has to actually spend more than a day in the godforsaken place has no time for.
A somewhat extreme view ...

There's no particular reason why a replacement bridge cannot be designed with modern materials and adequate stress paths which replicates the visual design. However there seems to be a very regular reluctance by the design professions to do so, I always suspect because they are unlikely to win any design awards for something to a predecessors' design. You even find this in things like extensions to classic Owen Williams bridges on the M1, which invariably are out of any sympathy with the original design. Otherwise fellow architects (supposedly an "artistic" profession) sneer and say "pastiche". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastiche#Architecture

I also recall a first design which did look nice and in keeping with what it was alongside, which then got "value engineered" by taking out the nice matching stone cladding and ornamental features to fit the budget. Of course, at construction there was a stability issue, and variations which meant it happily blew not only the budget but the costing of the original design :(
Last edited by WHBM on Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Hammersmith Bridge closed indefinitely to traffic

Post by Bryn666 »

The last major crossing of the Thames around or inside the GLA boundary to open was the QE2 Bridge. In 1991.

In Central London there was the renovation of the Hungerford Bridge and the Wobbly Bridge, both of which were more architectural statements than bonafide utility crossings although the initial problems of the latter at least got resolved and the former was an established crossing anyway.

In East London they came up with the cable car.

If you're trying to prove you have a working capital city and not a theme park, a Fun House pedestrian bridge, a cable car, and a £40m imaginary astroturf deck bridge solely in Boris Johnson's wildest dreams are not good ways to go about it.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Post Reply