B709/A708 Crossroads

[Berk]

Back to the matter in hand. How many drivers on the B709 have ‘just pulled out’?? If the visibility is that bad, shouldn’t that make them extremely cautious??

Or are they just not observing themselves when pulling out, like the bikers?? One thing I have observed about other drivers. They are extremely reticent about pulling forward to get a good view.

Suppose there’s a short queue of traffic, and a car leaves. The car behind might be in the same position as before, but the driver will only pull forward half a car length. That is completely rubbish where visibility is obstructed, you still won’t be able to see anything.

So they’ll then have to pull forward another half car length (might actually be touching the give way line this time). If they’d pulled forward properly in the first place, they’d have had a better view, and wouldn’t have to spend longer judging whether it was safe enough to leave or not.

[djw1981]

Depending upon the sightlines though, and given that a Give Way is more likely that a STOP, you'd get people making judgements based on what they can see and continuing through the junction without slowing. The cause of the accident (speed) remains unchanged, as will the result (KSI), though the exact attribution may change.

At the end of the day, bikers like fast, flowing, relatively empty roads (and why not) and this is such a road. Physical traffic calming measures are likely to bounce the problem onto other roads.

The existing B709 does in fact have STOP signs at the junction.

Yes, I was looking at the sightlines on A708. Or would a stop on one road automatically lead to a STOP if the priorities were changed.

[A72]

Back to the matter in hand. How many drivers on the B709 have ‘just pulled out’?? If the visibility is that bad, shouldn’t that make them extremely cautious??

Quite a lot, unfortunately. The accident, two weeks ago, was one such instance.

[Berk]

And what about the ages of the drivers, are many of them elderly??

How often are incidents occurring, besides??

The more I’m thinking about this, the more I’m thinkng there’s equal blame between drivers on the side road as much as the bikers.

One of the worst junctions I can think of is this one.

Actually, there’s another.

The Kettering Road example is quite bad on the approach, but when you arrive at the junction it’s not that bad - assuming you’ve pulled up to the line properly.

The Church Lane example is worse because the visibility is zero. But in both examples you should be protected a little because the limit is 30.

This seems more like Church Lane than Kettering Road.

But again, I’m thinking perhaps the majority of drivers are older/elderly, haven’t pulled up properly at the junction (so will have even less visibility to start with).

And when they do pull out are starting off in a very low gear and don’t accelerate enough. If you’re going to move, you need to put your foot down, or else you’ll become a hazard as a slow-moving vehicle.

A rule I always tell myself is: junctions are dangerous places. You don’t want to hang around in them. Why don’t other people feel the same way??

[A72]

And what about the ages of the drivers, are many of them elderly??

How often are incidents occurring, besides??

The more I’m thinking about this, the more I’m thinkng there’s equal blame between drivers on the side road as much as the bikers.

It's a broad mix of ages. I'll witness one or two near-misses, a week. There are bound to be more than that, though.

[SouthWest Philip]

Looking at the crossroads on Google Street View, I'd suggest realigning the B709 slightly to the east of the junction to allow a roundabout to be built.

[Berk]

A roundabout is a bit extreme as it’s a low-use junction. A stagger would seem more appropriate (and further away east from the pub).

[SouthWest Philip]

A roundabout is a bit extreme as it’s a low-use junction. A stagger would seem more appropriate (and further away east from the pub).

To an extent, I agree. However, if the objective is to slow traffic on the A708, a roundabout would appear the most realistic form of traffic calming.

[KeithW]

Just on the subject of the B1257 not sure where you got the information from but in 2013 there was 1 fatal accident for the whole year and that was on 3/8/13, crash map records all injury accidents and all fatal are listed, the B1257 has issues with bikers but sadly it’s a case of reckless riding, look at the B1222 at Newthorpe since squires biker cafe opened that road had had so many fatal accidents on it, I suspect the road this topic is based on has the same problems and that isn’t a road engineering issue as the roads are clearly fine at the NSL it sounds to be an issue with bikers going way too fast, the only solution is enforcement as mentioned for the B1257 once you get the mobile speed camera out word spreads and bikers slow down.

In the case of the B1257 in the last 6 years from and including 2013 we have only had 3 fatal accidents which is very much improved with an average now of 1 every 2 years.

I get it from driving the road regularly, knowing a few local coppers and living in the general area. It has indeed improved in recent years but there were was a period in the 2000's when the rate was simply crazy. Between 2010 and 2012 there were 33 fatal accidents on the roads in the jurisdiction of of North Yorkshire. That was when they started to deploy mobile speed vans more widely. Accidents were usually higher in summers with good weather.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-y ... e-23714505
There were 5 high risk roads they initially focused on.
B1222 Sherburn to Stillingfleet
B1257 Stokesley to Helmsley
A59 Skipton to Harrogate
A170 Thirsk to Scarborough
A65 Ingleton to Skipton

The B1257 no longer appears in the top 10 dangerous roads list but its clear that the bikers have switched to other roads.
see https://www.northyorkshire-pfcc.gov.uk/ ... -Safer.pdf

[KeithW]

A roundabout is a bit extreme as it’s a low-use junction. A stagger would seem more appropriate (and further away east from the pub).

To an extent, I agree. However, if the objective is to slow traffic on the A708, a roundabout would appear the most realistic form of traffic calming.

For around 1/2 a mile - then what ?

[SouthWest Philip]

For around 1/2 a mile - then what ?

A roundabout hopefully mitigates the specific issue of fatal accidents at the crossroads and would hopefully slow all traffic on approach.

The issue of over exuberant motorcycles is more difficult to deal with. Perhaps average speed cameras?

[Berk]

For around 1/2 a mile - then what ?

A roundabout hopefully mitigates the specific issue of fatal accidents at the crossroads and would hopefully slow all traffic on approach.

The issue of over exuberant motorcycles is more difficult to deal with. Perhaps average speed cameras?

That is the real issue here, not the junction itself.

So yes, SPECS and improved signage at the junction. There’s also the option of motion-activated traffic lights (with just sensors on the B709). That way, the mainline won’t be inconvenienced if there’s no crossing traffic.

Yet I can already see the bill for “improvements” running into millions - which the council won’t have lying around.

The best and cheapest solution would be a mobile camera visit. Can always start off weekly/twice-weekly at first, then cut down once compliance improves.

[Nwallace]

The ideal solution would be to stagger the junction and provide right turning lanes, but that cost would have to be justified based on whether there is a real, rather than perceived, safety problem at the junction,

That's effectivley what was done at Parbroath where the A92 and A912 cross.

The A708 from the march down to Yarrow has pretty good visibility, an easy gradient and wide carriageway.
It's pretty fast on a pedal cycle, as is the descent to the Gordon Arms on the B709, though the pub is a "good cycling" pub so many are stopping there...

[NICK 647063]

I get it from driving the road regularly, knowing a few local coppers and living in the general area. It has indeed improved in recent years but there were was a period in the 2000's when the rate was simply crazy. Between 2010 and 2012 there were 33 fatal accidents on the roads in the jurisdiction of of North Yorkshire. That was when they started to deploy mobile speed vans more widely. Accidents were usually higher in summers with good weather.

I don’t disagree about how the B1257 was but I was simply correcting your point about the fatalities you listed for 2013, my grandfathers farm is on the B1257 between Helmsley and Chop Gate so he get to know everything as you know what farmers are like, you said there were 11 fatals in 2011 well clearly whoever you got that off over did it, like I say it’s just best to get the facts offline rather than gossip, either way it’s much more improved these days.

I notice the A64 now tops the list but not all bikers so not so much as a shift in accidents, the A64’s accidents were mainly pedestrians and car drivers sadly, but that a road that needs improvement due to traffic volumes not just enforcement as it’s over capacity.

[Halmyre]

A rule I always tell myself is: junctions are dangerous places. You don’t want to hang around in them. Why don’t other people feel the same way??

I think it was racing driver Tim Birkin whose approach to any sort of junction was to drive through it flat out, in the theory that he was then spending as little time as possible in the 'danger zone'.

[KeithW]

For around 1/2 a mile - then what ?

A roundabout hopefully mitigates the specific issue of fatal accidents at the crossroads and would hopefully slow all traffic on approach.

The issue of over exuberant motorcycles is more difficult to deal with. Perhaps average speed cameras?

The original poster made the point that it was the A708 that was the actual problem rather than that crossroads and other sources tend to confirm that.

Two long-distance scenic routes have been identified in the What's Around the Corner initiative, along with key sections which have become accident hotspots, including the A708 up the Yarrow Valley to Moffat via St Mary's Loch, and the A72 from Blyth Bridge to Galashiels via Peebles.

In the past five years, there have been 10 motorcycling accidents resulting in serious injury in the vicinity of St Mary's Loch.

and

There are four sections of rural A-class road in the Borders where there was a high risk of fatal or serious crash in 2004-2006, relative to the amount of traffic. These were on the A72 – between Blyth Bridge and the B7059 junction; on the A708 – between Selkirk and the B709 junction; on the A701 – south of the Skirling junction; and on the A6105 – between Greenlaw and Duns

Note that these are 10 year old articles and since then work has been done on the A708 to improve safety and it no longer appears in the top 10 dangerous roads list for Scotland so my point remains that there does not appear to be any specific problem at the crossroads, the St Marys Loch area seems to have been the hot spot. As a one time biker I can well understand that, GSV shows it as just the sort of road that is great to ride but is decidedly unforgiving if you misjudge things as you encounter some really nasty bends after a long stretch of fast road.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.49552 ... 6656?hl=en

The signage and road markings had clearly been recently improved in 2009 when the Google car went through and this seems to have helped. As a result its no longer a top priority for the Borders Council. The last record of a fatal on that road that I could find involved a van and a car at Philliphaugh on the outskirts of Selkirk. The Borders Council also consulted local residents on the imposition of a 50 mph limit and this idea was rejected.
https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/download ... stionnaire

[Stevie D]

A roundabout is a bit extreme as it’s a low-use junction. A stagger would seem more appropriate (and further away east from the pub).

As the OP has said several times, the main problem is that traffic on the A708 goes too fast through the junction – so turning or crossing traffic can easily underestimate its speed given the straightness of the road and the lack of reference points. A staggered junction does nothing at all to solve the problems, and if anything makes them worse (as someone had already pointed out) by putting cross-traffic in the firing line for longer. A roundabout would stop drivers and bikers from hooning through at high speed.

[Hagbard]

There was a fatal accident at the Gordon Arms junction two years ago this month. A female pillion passenger was killed when a biker travelling along the A708 collided with another biker crossing the junction to continue south on the B709. The biker whose passenger was killed spent several months in hospital recovering from his injuries.

There was a report of the inquest in the local rag last week. According to the accident investigation the biker on the B709 approaching the junction slowed to about 40mph before accelerating again as he crossed the stop line and T boned the bike travelling along the A708.

Changing priorities won't help if drivers / riders ignore stop signs.

[doebag]

Without going too far off topic, what's the history of the lone petrol pump on the opposite side from the Hotel ? It was there in 2008 but gone in 2009. Was it owned and run by the hotel ?

[Euan]

Assuming that the A708 itself is the problem rather than the junction, are there any other junctions along the A708 with a safety record as poor as this one?

While there are no other major crossroads along the route, there are some T junctions on corners which could be quite dangerous if there are motorcyclists passing by too fast.