Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

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Nwallace
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Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Nwallace »

Spotted this during an audax at the weekend, never seen a junction like this before

https://goo.gl/maps/pYT3sn6WfFzkX4xu7
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M4Simon
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by M4Simon »

Done like this presumably because the cottage on the right takes visibility around that corner down to zero. Traffic approaching the main line give way is required to slow down to be sure that there is nothing emerging out of the side road.

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Bryn666
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Bryn666 »

Also completely unlawful...
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by doebag »

I've seen junctions with better visibility where one of the arms is a stop sign, surely that would be appropriate here ?
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RichardA35
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by RichardA35 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 08:47 Also completely unlawful...
I'd have to agree. The approach route in the GSV shot has 504.1 signs on both approaches (crossroads ahead with that route as the major route) and then you meet a give way line across your carriageway....
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by PhilC »

Not quite the same, but I do know of two three-way junctions where two of the arms have give way lines across them.

https://goo.gl/maps/L5RpyE5YK1rc2oJ39
https://goo.gl/maps/MLpHi9nDtnjMXcd79

The second one also has a 20mph roundel painted on the road even though the 20mph limit doesn't start for about another 50 yards.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 08:47 Also completely unlawful...
It is however an efficient fix to a hazardous junction (possibly with a prior accident record). What would your solution be ? Install signals ?

Could always put a blob of paint right in the middle, give way markings on the remaining leg, and call it a mini-roundabout.
Last edited by WHBM on Tue May 28, 2019 11:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by trickstat »

Surely it would make more sense to make one route the mainline and mark the road and sign accordingly? This may include stop signs if considered necessary.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by PhilC »

There's this one in Rhayader with two Stop signs and one Give Way sign.

https://goo.gl/maps/xUzJVasmmhz19dvP9
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 11:19
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 08:47 Also completely unlawful...
It is however an efficient fix to a hazardous junction (possibly with a prior accident record). What would your solution be ? Install signals ?

Could always put a blob of paint right in the middle, give way markings on the remaining leg, and call it a mini-roundabout.
My solution would be a Stop sign on the arm with the worst visibility and speed reduction on the other two arms which retain priority.

Putting in an unlawful layout at a collision site is a good way to get yourself potentially done for corporate manslaughter.
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by the cheesecake man »

Similar setup here. I've no idea why.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.36027 ... 312!8i6656

And one here but this is entirely sensible and reflects the reality that traffic coming up the hill isn't going to stop.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.38668 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 12:01 My solution would be a Stop sign on the arm with the worst visibility and speed reduction on the other two arms which retain priority.

Putting in an unlawful layout at a collision site is a good way to get yourself potentially done for corporate manslaughter.
I don't think anyone on the side arms would be not stopping anyway, due to the extreme poor visibility. But they can stop, decide to go, and due to the critically short sightlines still get hit by someone coming over at 30mph where the additional Give Way marks have been placed.

It's only traffic engineers who see a Stop sign and think "Gosh, those are unusual, only put up at critical junctions".
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by trickstat »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 12:46 Similar setup here. I've no idea why.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.36027 ... 312!8i6656
Maybe a lot of the traffic coming from the direction of the camera turns right and the give way on the downhill stops queues building up? That's the only plausible explananation I can come up with. However if only a small amount of traffic comes down that hill the right turn will generally not be a problem while if there is quite a lot of traffic there will be queueing at this give way line?
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Chris5156 »

Would a mini-roundabout not achieve the same result in an entirely legal way?
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 12:48
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 12:01 My solution would be a Stop sign on the arm with the worst visibility and speed reduction on the other two arms which retain priority.

Putting in an unlawful layout at a collision site is a good way to get yourself potentially done for corporate manslaughter.
I don't think anyone on the side arms would be not stopping anyway, due to the extreme poor visibility. But they can stop, decide to go, and due to the critically short sightlines still get hit by someone coming over at 30mph where the additional Give Way marks have been placed.

It's only traffic engineers who see a Stop sign and think "Gosh, those are unusual, only put up at critical junctions".
Let me confirm, after years of berating traffic engineers for not doing things "by the book", you now want them to not do things by the book?
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 14:16Let me confirm, after years of berating traffic engineers for not doing things "by the book", you now want them to not do things by the book?
Yes :)

Because what should be done is what is reasonable and sensible, and comprehensible to all drivers. If something is omitted which is in the book and sensible, that's wrong. And if going BEYOND the book in a sensible and practical manner, as here, is done, that's right.

That's why TSRGD is called TSRGD and not TSR.
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c2R
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by c2R »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 12:46 Similar setup here. I've no idea why.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.36027 ... 312!8i6656


Just wow. This is more special than the original junction, because the markings imply that you don't have to give way if you're approaching the camera and turning left, as the marking is part way though the junction...

I agree with Chris - mini roundabout in the first example, job done.
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Bryn666
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 14:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 14:16Let me confirm, after years of berating traffic engineers for not doing things "by the book", you now want them to not do things by the book?
Yes :)

Because what should be done is what is reasonable and sensible, and comprehensible to all drivers. If something is omitted which is in the book and sensible, that's wrong. And if going BEYOND the book in a sensible and practical manner, as here, is done, that's right.

That's why TSRGD is called TSRGD and not TSR.
And a cursory glance at the regulations part will tell you that 3 and 4-way stops/give ways are not permitted. They are a priority device, not a traffic calming one.

Having multi-arm give ways dilutes who has priority - as I said upthread, the lawful and correct engineering answer is a pair of Stop signs on two of the roads and measures to reduce speeds on approach for the other two.

I also notice the bus stop is unlawfully marked as well. This being in Cumbria CC, I can hazard a guess at how it got there - politics and a weak partner organisation that began with C willing to break every rule going to score brownie points.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by WHBM »

OK, we could go on like this for some time. I find it a valid solution to a difficult junction. In the US a 4-way stop would be the solution.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by TS »

This might be a 3-out-of-3 example way down in deepest darkest Dorset. It's not 100% clear whether the Google camera approach is current give-way lines or old ones which are still showing quite clearly.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.76074 ... 312!8i6656
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