Roads building vs holistic transport policy

[aj444]

it could force them to simply sell up and move on if it is not adequately funded.

I'm not convinced that would be a bad thing!

Rumours are the other two First Manchester depots will go to Diamond.
If so - It won't take long before you will be wishing a return to the good old days of First....

[Jeni]

it could force them to simply sell up and move on if it is not adequately funded.

I'm not convinced that would be a bad thing!

Rumours are the other two First Manchester depots will go to Diamond.
If so - It won't take long before you will be wishing a return to the good old days of First....

I grew up in Worcestershire, I'm familiar with how it turns out when Diamond take over from First. God help us all!

[AndyB]

The theory goes that if the user wants it, the free market will produce a suitable supplier, however bus deregulation proved that the free market only provides what suits the suppliers within it, especially since competition is an illusion in most areas - for most A-B local bus journeys, there is a single supplier, there only being meaningful competition for express services and the most profitable and intense local bus services.

Bringing this part of the conversation together, I'd suggest that the deregulated mode where loss-making services are only provided if the local authority decides to tender them and natural monopolies have developed on most profitable local bus services has failed, because the service provided is profit-oriented rather than passenger-oriented - providing buses for potential passengers is a means to an end, and that end is making money.

In the same way as traffic engineers on this forum are identifying that asphalt isn't the cure to everything, I think that public transport needs to be taken out of its silo and an honest appraisal made of what is needed to maximise the number of people reaching their final destination by public transport (or indeed cycling).

What is the impact of a poor or non-existent timetable on traffic in its destination, origin, or even on the places along the way?
Why is the park and ride in a stupid place and why does it charge to park so nobody finds it cheaper than driving?
What services, if they were provided, would be so obviously virtue signalling as to be worthless (see my minimum timetable of five daytime services for commuters, schools and shoppers)?
How do we accommodate those who live on a road that cannot sustain a bus service?
What are the logistics of shuttle services from Park and Ride sites at sensible times to retail and industrial sites which would otherwise need two buses?
How can feeder buses fit round trains and trams?
Can fare structures be reviewed (example: Florence. You buy a ticket which is valid for two hours regardless of distance, so you can take two 20 minute bus trips, spend 45 minutes at your destination, and the ticket's still valid when you board the last bus 1 hour 55 minutes after you got on the first one)?

Always keep in view that a reduction in vehicles on the road is pretty much an imperative, given the lack of room to increase roadspace. Autonomous electric vehicles, as has been pointed out, still take up space and only address green issues - they don't address the problems faced by those whose journey that day precludes the use of public transport and therefore have no way of avoiding traffic jams.

[JonH]

Mass transit is, whilst theoretically a sound idea, practically a problem...

Most modern housing estates are built as a series of branches off the (fairly narrow) entry road... there is no viable turn-around point for a bus, which means that the nearest bus stop is never closer than the entry to the estate. My nearest bus stop is a good ten minutes walk from my house (and I don't dawdle) which is fine if the weather is good and I'm not carrying anything - or have the kids with me.

An off-peak return ticket from that stop to the nearest town centre is £3.00 - which compares favourably with the six miles (return) drive and £2.00 for two hours car parking (refunded by the supermarket). But at £9.00 for two adults and two children less so. Plus, if you buy anything, you have to carry it rather than simply sticking it in the boot of the car.

The logistics and costs of using bus and train to get to the nearest town with a decent shopping centre are barely worth thinking about.

Interestingly, I live on a new(ish) development in Basingstoke. The planning application was made on the grounds that an existing bus route would be diverted through the development's central spine road. Stagecoach even published a revised route map showing the diversion. But it never happened - probably due to the fact that part of the road is chock full of parked cars. Some poor saps have ended up with no road in front of their properties but a bus lane that is blocked off by bollards.

On the subject of cost, we are lucky in that the local bus company has a group day ticket for Basingstoke for around a fiver off peak, so great at weekends if you don't want to drive. Our buses run up to every ten minutes so frequency isn't an issue.

On the roads - in terms of development and improvement, we are saddled with highways engineers in Hampshire who think adding traffic lights and lanes to roundabouts improves capacity and traffic flow. (Hint: it really doesn't) I could moan about that for a while - but as Hampshire Highways don't care about the bodge jobs they have saddled us with, it'd be a waste of everyone's time.

[AndyB]

I wrote a piece about the impact of public transport on traffic a few years ago. One response was to move all the secondary/grammar schools away from city centres, perhaps at least 8 miles away, but that ran into the immediate problem of how to get there. Probably fewer pupils would be able to use public transport, increasing the number of people requiring to drive to leave pupils off, and creating more localised traffic issues.

Nothing is as straightforward as it seems.

[Steven]

On the roads - in terms of development and improvement, we are saddled with highways engineers in Hampshire who think adding traffic lights and lanes to roundabouts improves capacity and traffic flow. (Hint: it really doesn't) I could moan about that for a while - but as Hampshire Highways don't care about the bodge jobs they have saddled us with, it'd be a waste of everyone's time.

Surprisingly, you'd be wrong about this. There are a number of circumstances where adding traffic lights to roundabouts improves capacity and flow, such as where rotational traffic speeds mean that gaps for traffic to enter the roundabout are insufficient to allow for effective use of the traffic space. Other examples are where traffic flows in one direction are too large to allow for traffic to enter the roundabout in other directions leading to large tailbacks on single entries.

An example of the first type is M54 J4. Due to the large size of the roundabout, rotational traffic speeds (whilst safe and within speed limits) were simply too great to allow for traffic to join the roundabout effectively, leading to long queues at all entries, including down the sliproads and sometimes onto the motorway mainline. The addition of traffic lights on the roundabout meant that suddenly traffic could join the roundabout in a controlled manner, and the entry queue issue was resolved.

An example of the second type was at Chapel Ash Island where the relative flow along the Inner Ring Road was such that traffic could not join the roundabout from A41, leading to long tailbacks on the approach. Again, the addition of traffic lights on the roundabout resolved the issue to the best of the ability to do so. Clearly adding the originally designed grade separation would also have resolved the issue, but at a much greater cost and DfT grants would almost certainly not have been forthcoming based on a cost/benefit method.

I'm sure some of our resident engineers could give many more examples of why adding traffic lights to roundabouts can be a postive benefit to capacity and traffic flow.

[Jeni]

Also in addition to Steven's point above - in an urban area signaling a roundabout can have massive benefits for connectivity for non-motorists

[rhyds]

The problem with roundabout signals is that they work in places, they work in a lot of places but they don't work in *all* places, and the various roads agencies have a habit of going through a procedure of:

Build roundabout

Build larger roundabout

Light up roundabout

Build road through roundabout

Rather than really looking at the whole picture

[aj444]

The theory goes that if the user wants it, the free market will produce a suitable supplier, however bus deregulation proved that the free market only provides what suits the suppliers within it, especially since competition is an illusion in most areas - for most A-B local bus journeys, there is a single supplier, there only being meaningful competition for express services and the most profitable and intense local bus services.

The biggest competition for public transport is always going to be the car/taxi rather than other operators. I suspect the days of works buses are long gone - because everyone has a choice of where to work rather than having to choose employment based on where it's possible to get to on public transport. School buses are still well used as are the off peak shopping services for the OAP's, for the rest we only get those who have to travel by bus for whatever reason.

Bringing this part of the conversation together, I'd suggest that the deregulated mode where loss-making services are only provided if the local authority decides to tender them and natural monopolies have developed on most profitable local bus services has failed, because the service provided is profit-oriented rather than passenger-oriented - providing buses for potential passengers is a means to an end, and that end is making money.

Certainly a debate worth having - but can we as taxpayers afford it?

Besides costs we'll be back to a heavily unionised industry, politicians poking their noses in (Mrs Smith needs to go shopping on a Thursday and she shouts loudly at parish meetings so we'll divert the bus to pick her up ) and a lack of care from front line staff towards passengers (it doesn't matter the council pay my wages )....

Why is the park and ride in a stupid place and why does it charge to park so nobody finds it cheaper than driving?

P&R sites are always sited by councils - and it is those councils that decide how they are run. I wonder sometimes if they are decided upon as political needs rather than practical needs. A foretaste of what's to come with a nationalised industry perhaps?

[JonH]

The problem with roundabout signals is that they work in places, they work in a lot of places but they don't work in *all* places, and the various roads agencies have a habit of going through a procedure of:

Build roundabout

Build larger roundabout

Light up roundabout

Build road through roundabout

Rather than really looking at the whole picture

I'd agree with this - although Steven has a point is some cases. The main problem where lights have been added around Basingstoke is that they remain on 24/7. Whilst the traffic issue they address might be served at peak times, at other times, the junctions could function without them. The other issue with lights is the insistence that they do not let traffic flow - so one light goes green when the next is red - or one light goes green and the next is green until the released traffic approaches it and it turns to red. There are two roundabouts near me where I know that to go around them will always require 3 stops on the way.

[KeithW]

I'd agree with this - although Steven has a point is some cases. The main problem where lights have been added around Basingstoke is that they remain on 24/7. Whilst the traffic issue they address might be served at peak times, at other times, the junctions could function without them. The other issue with lights is the insistence that they do not let traffic flow - so one light goes green when the next is red - or one light goes green and the next is green until the released traffic approaches it and it turns to red. There are two roundabouts near me where I know that to go around them will always require 3 stops on the way.

It used to be that signals at roundabouts did operate part time however that was when they tended to be on fixed timings before PLC style controllers and ground loop sensors were widely available. There are a number of light controlled junctions close to me where the logic used is quite apparent. In one case the main traffic flow pretty much defaults to green, however if you approach the junction from the secondary flow and there are no vehicles crossing or within a very short distance as you approach the red light it changes to green, time it right and you can pass with just the slightest slowing down.

The real problems come with complex junctions such as this one between the A174 and A19.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52907 ... !1e3?hl=en

The issues here are
1) The volume of turning traffic
AADT on the A174 east of the junction is 50k
AADT on the A174 west of the junction is 20k
AADT on the A19 north of the junction is 80k
AADT on the A19 south of the junction is 30k

2) As with the A14 at Girton the traffic is mix of local commuter traffic and long distance strategic traffic

3) To make life more interesting the flow is tidal
Morning rush its primarily westbound on the A174 to the junction then north on the A19 reversing in the evening hence the dedicated filter lanes

Most of time it works well but it took a lot of fine tuning to get there. When the A174 westbound extension to Ingleby Barwick, Thornaby and Stockton was opened it took quite a while before the new traffic flows settled down and HE got the timings and programming right. The police have HE on speed dial because if the lights fail and we go back to standard round about rules it copes off peak but at rush hour its find another route time.

[Mark Hewitt]

I found this most informative! https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019 ... -a-cartoon

[AndyB]

I was on Evening Extra (at 22:15) with Ian Campbell (Translink service director of operations) last night discussing the latest Travel survey for NI, which shows public transport use at 5% of all journeys and car use (driver or passenger) for 70% of all journeys (down from 72% three years earlier, but let's face it, that's margin of error.)

I'd been described to Ian as an expert on public transport, which is generous - I'm merely very well-informed - but Ian and I both forgot that the survey shows the main mode of transport for the particular journey. If the last part of the journey is via bus or train from a park and ride, then it's not counted.

I did however get connectedness of bus lanes in, expansion and contraction of town bus services, the red herring of residents parking around bus lanes (our street is dreadful and we only have a bus lane on the main road two hours a day!), and a dig at two main political parties for not doing any work - "get a certain two parties to have their heads knocked together and then we can get planning and implementing."

We went on to discuss the need for the car, and I was given the chance for a better punchline about the need for better support for public transport for the sake of those who do use the bus, those who could use the bus or train, and those who can't, but the recording was cut short.

[Berk]

The problem with roundabout signals is that they work in places, they work in a lot of places but they don't work in *all* places, and the various roads agencies have a habit of going through a procedure of:

Build roundabout

Build larger roundabout

Light up roundabout

Build road through roundabout

Rather than really looking at the whole picture

I'd agree with this - although Steven has a point is some cases. The main problem where lights have been added around Basingstoke is that they remain on 24/7. Whilst the traffic issue they address might be served at peak times, at other times, the junctions could function without them. The other issue with lights is the insistence that they do not let traffic flow - so one light goes green when the next is red - or one light goes green and the next is green until the released traffic approaches it and it turns to red. There are two roundabouts near me where I know that to go around them will always require 3 stops on the way.

I’d echo this. Poor phasing is another aspect that should be taken into account.

On my way to work I frequently encounter this junction. The set-up is such that the near set of lights is primed to go green, but the next (furthest) set in the distance remain on red for at least another 10 seconds. This means that when traffic is heavy but has made a reasonable start, and is flowing smoothly, it suddenly snarls to a halt, causing traffic to come to a stop on the roundabout.

Traffic should not be made to come to a halt on the roundabout itself by the presence of signals. There’s also insufficient time for traffic to complete a ¾-circuit of the roundabout too. This means when you are finally able to take the exit to the right, you could be backing into a queue of people doing a U-turn in the other direction.

And again here, there are four lanes of traffic, two of which are headed northbound on the A15, and two on the circulating lanes (A1139N) - one of which is shared with the A15 (lane 3).

If you’re positioned in lane 3 because you want to head north on the A15, it’s often impossible to do so because traffic is backed up from yet another red phase from heading straight on the A1139, forcing you to either cut over too quickly, or better still avoid it altogether.

Another complaint is that quieter roads such as Parnwell Way (at 12 o'clock in the first view) get a very strict allocation of green time, which is disproportionate to the amount of joining traffic from that direction (except perhaps at peak times).

It’s far from uncommon for traffic to be backed up this far on a normal off-peak red cycle, and even twice as far during peak times.

[lefthandedspanner]

I'm sure some of our resident engineers could give many more examples of why adding traffic lights to roundabouts can be a postive benefit to capacity and traffic flow.

Not an engineer, but the traffic lights added to M62 J24 (Ainley Top) led to a huge improvement all round. It's a five-way roundabout interchange with no dominant flow, and before the traffic lights were installed it used to be absolute bedlam.

On my way to work I frequently encounter this junction. The set-up is such that the near set of lights is primed to go green, but the next (furthest) set in the distance remain on red for at least another 10 seconds. This means that when traffic is heavy but has made a reasonable start, and is flowing smoothly, it suddenly snarls to a halt, causing traffic to come to a stop on the roundabout.

Traffic should not be made to come to a halt on the roundabout itself by the presence of signals. There’s also insufficient time for traffic to complete a ¾-circuit of the roundabout too. This means when you are finally able to take the exit to the right, you could be backing into a queue of people doing a U-turn in the other direction.

This approach seems to have been taken by Sheffield City Council - just about every signalised roundabout on major road within the city is like this, and as a result, when someone breaks down they cause half the city to grind to a halt as the traffic behind has a green light but has nowhere to move to.

[FleetlinePhil]

I'm not convinced that would be a bad thing!

Rumours are the other two First Manchester depots will go to Diamond.
If so - It won't take long before you will be wishing a return to the good old days of First....

I grew up in Worcestershire, I'm familiar with how it turns out when Diamond take over from First. God help us all!

I missed it at the time (27th June) but Rotala (Diamond's parent company) have indeed agreed to buy First's Bolton depot and operations, with completion due in August.

[Bryn666]

Do you know how useless public transport is in west Cornwall?

Yes, which is exactly my point... why is "improve alternatives to driving" such an alien concept to people?

[Hdeng16]

I get your point Bryn, but this specific roundabout is not busy because of a lack of public transport.

We can’t get people to use public transport where they live, we’re certainly not going to get holiday makers to do so.

[booshank]

I get your point Bryn, but this specific roundabout is not busy because of a lack of public transport.

We can’t get people to use public transport where they live, we’re certainly not going to get holiday makers to do so.

I once went on holiday to Perranporth and travelled around Cornwall by bus. Can't remember all of the places we went but it definitely included Bodmin and the Eden Project. Can't say it was a convenient experience!

[jackal]

Do you know how useless public transport is in west Cornwall?

Yes, which is exactly my point... why is "improve alternatives to driving" such an alien concept to people?

Have you actually lived in the country? Massively subsidised hourly buses with three people (two of them not paying a fare) are the norm. For most people in low population density areas they are just fundamentally not a practical form of travel. Rail? Even less practical. Cycling? Good facilities (empty roads) are largely already there, and yes, they do get used, just not so much for a school run, Tesco trip, or long commute. Best of luck with your one-size-fits-all metropolitan travel strategy out here.