M11, New Junction 7a

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Bryn666
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Bryn666 »

Big L wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 14:13
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:07 ....Not that it has prevented M6 J15 from being turned into a lane drop (70mph to 20mph in one go, excellent!)... add another black mark against ALR there then :roll:
You’ve mentioned this over in the smart motorway thread.

How is it worse than what was there before?

Before the roadworks you either had traffic pulling onto a slip road and braking “70-20” on a dedicated exit lane (just like there will be on the new setup except without the swerve to the left), or else they start braking before the slip road, ie in a lane not dedicated to the exit, which is surely worse?
The whole point of a deceleration lane is so you decelerate exiting the motorway fully in the expectation of a bend or roundabout, away from following traffic. If you have a lane drop as per J15 there is less expectations that you will be thrown into a sudden sharp bend.

Where lane drops go into sharp bends there is always evidence of people messing it up. See M60/M62 and M25/M11 for classic examples.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by jackal »

Herned wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 14:58
jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04 It does seem unduly restrictive, and why the special concern about unauthorised users when this would apply to any GSJ between a motorway and non-motorway road? But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
With a roundabout there is an 'escape' option which a trumpet doesn't have. User stupidity really
If the trumpet leads inevitably to a motorway the approach road should be under motorway conditions so there is no need for an escape at the trumpet itself.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
The M1 widening scheme J6a-10 included work to reverse the direction of the J8 trumpet for exactly this reason - changing the loop from one used by traffic exiting the M1 to one used by traffic entering it.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 18:09
jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
The M1 widening scheme J6a-10 included work to reverse the direction of the J8 trumpet for exactly this reason - changing the loop from one used by traffic exiting the M1 to one used by traffic entering it.
Also extended the weaving length by 100m or so.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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Chris5156 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 18:09
jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
The M1 widening scheme J6a-10 included work to reverse the direction of the J8 trumpet for exactly this reason - changing the loop from one used by traffic exiting the M1 to one used by traffic entering it.
Isn't that the opposite of what it says? 'It is not suitable for motorway to motorway links or generally high speed approaches to the loop from the minor road'. Exit good, entry bad.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 20:14
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 18:09
jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
The M1 widening scheme J6a-10 included work to reverse the direction of the J8 trumpet for exactly this reason - changing the loop from one used by traffic exiting the M1 to one used by traffic entering it.
Isn't that the opposite of what it says? 'It is not suitable for motorway to motorway links or generally high speed approaches to the loop from the minor road'. Exit good, entry bad.
Sorry, you’re right, that’s the opposite, though I do remember it being part of the rationale. In that specific case I think you could argue the loop does not have a high speed approach - there’s a 50 limit on the lead up and it comes 400m after a roundabout, so it is a slower approach than that of vehicles exiting the M1.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Herned »

jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 17:25 If the trumpet leads inevitably to a motorway the approach road should be under motorway conditions so there is no need for an escape at the trumpet itself.
Yes i know, but I can't think of any other reason for it - roads seem to need to be ever-more idiot proof
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by The God of Biscuits »

I think this new junction needs to be viewed as part of package along with the other improvements to the road network that have been already/will be made in Harlow; the primary purpose of this junction is (along with those other improvements) to provide relief to Harlow's traffic problems, and also to enable the Harlow North development to go ahead. It's compatible with a full bypass in future, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the measured fraction of through traffic in Harlow traveling between the M11 and A414 and vice versa is pretty small (although no doubt that is partially a consequence of the current bad traffic situation). I believe the plan for the junction has been tweaked again and only the Sheering road roundabout and link from the J7a dumbbell is now going to be built in the first instance.

I mentioned those other associated road improvements:
Gilden Way (B183) to be widened to S2+1 to connect to the new Sheering Road roundabout
Churchgate roundabout on the B183 to be hamburgerised
A414/B183 roundabout already widened with free flow from the north and to the south
A414 already widened to S4 south of the A414/B183 roundabout
A414/Edinburgh Way roundabout currently being widened and signalised
Edinburgh Way currently being dualled between A414 and River Way
Templefields Industrial Estate (North of Edinburgh Way) getting a new access road onto A1184 so traffic can access the estate without using Edinburgh Way/River Way.

Coupled with the previous improvements to the A414 at the A1025 and A1169 roundabouts and the dualling back to M11 J7, there's significantly more capacity along the route then there was just a few years ago - I guess the modelling suggests this will be enough to absorb the changes to traffic flows when J7a gets built.

I mentioned Harlow North above, as there are more road proposals as part of this, which when coupled with the previous improvements give Harlow an almost-bypass. They can be found on the East Herts planning website. As well as widening the current Fifth Avenue bridge over the River Stort and replacing the A414 Eastwick Road roundabout with a signalised crossroads (planning ref. 3/19/1046/FUL), there's also another crossing of the Stort planned to connect to River Way, so plugging into the currently-ongoing Edinburgh Way dualling (planning ref. 3/19/1051/FUL).
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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The God of Biscuits wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 19:30 I mentioned Harlow North above, as there are more road proposals as part of this, which when coupled with the previous improvements give Harlow an almost-bypass. They can be found on the East Herts planning website. As well as widening the current Fifth Avenue bridge over the River Stort and replacing the A414 Eastwick Road roundabout with a signalised crossroads (planning ref. 3/19/1046/FUL), there's also another crossing of the Stort planned to connect to River Way, so plugging into the currently-ongoing Edinburgh Way dualling (planning ref. 3/19/1051/FUL).
The God of Biscuits wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 19:30 Templefields Industrial Estate (North of Edinburgh Way) getting a new access road onto A1184 so traffic can access the estate without using Edinburgh Way/River Way.
I hadn't heard of this one but having worked down there and as as regular user of the tip it makes perfect sense. Frankly it should have been done before they started widening Edinburgh Way but I suppose it would have become a rat-run. It's actually a scary road to drive for all the HGV movements and very relaxed approach to parking in the road.
https://www.essexhighways.org/highway-s ... -road.aspx

Adding a bridge on River Way for this Harlow North / Gilston Park Estate plan seems a bit counter-intuitive. Again, rat-run comes to mind.
https://gilstonparkestate.com
https://gilstonparkestate.com/planning-process
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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The God of Biscuits wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 19:30 I'm sure I read somewhere that the measured fraction of through traffic in Harlow traveling between the M11 and A414 and vice versa is pretty small (although no doubt that is partially a consequence of the current bad traffic situation).
Yes, I think that's true. However, I agree that there must be a great deal of suppressed demand. About twenty years ago, I was commuting by car to London from the area to East London daily - the main realistic options were to either go down the A10 to the North Circular and round to Charlie Brown's, or down to the M25 and in on the M11, or to go via Harlow.

Much of the time I'd go via the A10, despite the traffic lights through Cheshunt and congestion in the area being dreadful, because it was better than driving through Harlow - However, a direct link to the M11 from the A414 would change traffic patterns considerably in the area - it would allow for improvements for pedestrians and local access in Sawbridgeworth. It would also provide a preferable route to Stansted airport for many drivers rather than using the A10/A120. I'm quite surprised, really, that it's not been built before now.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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c2R wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 14:16Much of the time I'd go via the A10, despite the traffic lights through Cheshunt and congestion in the area being dreadful, because it was better than driving through Harlow - However, a direct link to the M11 from the A414 would change traffic patterns considerably in the area - it would allow for improvements for pedestrians and local access in Sawbridgeworth. It would also provide a preferable route to Stansted airport for many drivers rather than using the A10/A120. I'm quite surprised, really, that it's not been built before now.
I think that's down to administrative boundaries. Harlow is on the border of Essex and Hertfordshire. Herts has upgraded their bit of the A414 right up to the border and would no doubt like it to reach the M11, but Essex are plainly not interested; their east-west route is the A120 and that's the one that gets all their attention.

Inter-county disagreements like this are supposed to be resolved by planning at a national level, but in the era when entirely new roads might have been built, the MOT and its successors had their own idea for the North Orbital Road, which would have passed just south of Harlow, and at one time the original M11 which would have passed north and west of it, so a new line for the A414 to the north of Harlow didn't concern them either.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 02:44
c2R wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 14:16Much of the time I'd go via the A10, despite the traffic lights through Cheshunt and congestion in the area being dreadful, because it was better than driving through Harlow - However, a direct link to the M11 from the A414 would change traffic patterns considerably in the area - it would allow for improvements for pedestrians and local access in Sawbridgeworth. It would also provide a preferable route to Stansted airport for many drivers rather than using the A10/A120. I'm quite surprised, really, that it's not been built before now.
I think that's down to administrative boundaries. Harlow is on the border of Essex and Hertfordshire. Herts has upgraded their bit of the A414 right up to the border and would no doubt like it to reach the M11, but Essex are plainly not interested; their east-west route is the A120 and that's the one that gets all their attention.

Inter-county disagreements like this are supposed to be resolved by planning at a national level, but in the era when entirely new roads might have been built, the MOT and its successors had their own idea for the North Orbital Road, which would have passed just south of Harlow, and at one time the original M11 which would have passed north and west of it, so a new line for the A414 to the north of Harlow didn't concern them either.

Oh yes, undoubtedly - it would be a road built in Essex primarily for the benefit of the residents of Hertfordshire (and to some extent, Harlow, of course, but as was mentioned upthread, not a great deal of journeys are currently "through" traffic).
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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There might be a little delay to J7A. It may need to be redesigned to include an underpass for access to the new Harlow Hospital. I only found out today that Princess Alexandra Hospital Trust won funding a year ago to build on a greenfield site 'close to the new M11 junction 7a'. This includes new road modelling to understand the traffic flows.
https://www.pah.nhs.uk/newhospital

From the Joint Public Engagement Proposal:
"A high level transport analysis conducted by Essex County Council, concluded that the new hospital on the East Harlow site will benefit from infrastructure improvements being provided by the sustainable transport corridor and bus rapid transit routes.
It is also determined that a high frequency bus service would be required for the new hospital and these buses would pass through the planned residential development to the south of the M11 link road. Therefore, an underpass will be required to take bus services across the M11 link road, and make the site accessible to public transport, pedestrians and cyclists

 In addition, PAHT is working with traffic and highways consultants to investigate the value and feasibility of altering the planned Campion’s Roundabout and moving the adjacent attenuation pond to accommodate the main hospital spur access. The roundabout would allow for a suitable two lane in and out access to the hospital, which was not anticipated at the time the initial junction works were planned by Essex County Council.

 Highways England and Essex County Council have requested the next stage of transport modelling to be completed to underpin the hospital being located on the new Junction 7a and to secure formal Highways approval as part of the planning process. Jacobs (as the Essex County Council nominated transport and highway advisors) will be preparing a brief and cost for completing in April 2020."
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by The God of Biscuits »

Bump.

Work started on this back in September last year (on both the new junction on the M11 and the required widening of Gilden Way simultaneously) and seems to be progressing at a reasonable speed. A lot of excavation work has been done already in the vicinity of the motorway where the new junction itself will be located, and there are a couple of miles of narrow lanes in the works area. Roll on 2022!
Big Nick wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 21:36 There might be a little delay to J7A. It may need to be redesigned to include an underpass for access to the new Harlow Hospital. I only found out today that Princess Alexandra Hospital Trust won funding a year ago to build on a greenfield site 'close to the new M11 junction 7a'. This includes new road modelling to understand the traffic flows.
https://www.pah.nhs.uk/newhospital

From the Joint Public Engagement Proposal:
"A high level transport analysis conducted by Essex County Council, concluded that the new hospital on the East Harlow site will benefit from infrastructure improvements being provided by the sustainable transport corridor and bus rapid transit routes.
It is also determined that a high frequency bus service would be required for the new hospital and these buses would pass through the planned residential development to the south of the M11 link road. Therefore, an underpass will be required to take bus services across the M11 link road, and make the site accessible to public transport, pedestrians and cyclists

 In addition, PAHT is working with traffic and highways consultants to investigate the value and feasibility of altering the planned Campion’s Roundabout and moving the adjacent attenuation pond to accommodate the main hospital spur access. The roundabout would allow for a suitable two lane in and out access to the hospital, which was not anticipated at the time the initial junction works were planned by Essex County Council.

 Highways England and Essex County Council have requested the next stage of transport modelling to be completed to underpin the hospital being located on the new Junction 7a and to secure formal Highways approval as part of the planning process. Jacobs (as the Essex County Council nominated transport and highway advisors) will be preparing a brief and cost for completing in April 2020."
This is a bit confusing, as I thought the plan was that if the new hospital goes ahead, they'll build the 'phase 2b' of the original plans (which adds the second 'Pincey Brook' roundabout and associated link roads and would be where any future northern bypass connects) and the hospital would connect to this roundabout rather than the 'Campions' roundabout that they are building as part of the 'phase 2a' works? Unless this is what the quote is saying, just in a particularly mangled way...

One thing I don't really get about the scheme is the design of the motorway junction itself. Fair enough that it doesn't warrant anything trumpet-like with free-flow in all directions, but why isn't the roundabout on the eastern side of the motorway a teardrop? - it only connects to slip roads on that side... And why is the overbridge marked out with two lanes eastbound? - the southbound on slip (which is the only place those lanes are going) only has one lane... And why bother with the roundabout on the western side at all? - why not have the northbound off slip just end at a give-way, and have the east-bound link road just split with lane 1 heading onto the northbound on slip and lane 2 going over the bridge towards the southbound on slip? It surely can't be related to U-turning considerations, as the Campions roundabout is going to be barely 200m away from the motorway junction anyway so it's not like you'd have to go that far to do so?

Basically, why wouldn't you make a compact three-arm GSJ look like something like this by default?: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/50% ... -4.1633234
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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The God of Biscuits wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 14:48 Bump.

Work started on this back in September last year (on both the new junction on the M11 and the required widening of Gilden Way simultaneously) and seems to be progressing at a reasonable speed. A lot of excavation work has been done already in the vicinity of the motorway where the new junction itself will be located, and there are a couple of miles of narrow lanes in the works area. Roll on 2022!
Sounds good, I shall have to make the effort to drive past there soon for a look-see. I did go that way before Christmas and there was a lot of roadwork delays in Sheering.
The God of Biscuits wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 14:48 One thing I don't really get about the scheme is the design of the motorway junction itself. Fair enough that it doesn't warrant anything trumpet-like with free-flow in all directions, but why isn't the roundabout on the eastern side of the motorway a teardrop? - it only connects to slip roads on that side... And why is the overbridge marked out with two lanes eastbound? - the southbound on slip (which is the only place those lanes are going) only has one lane... And why bother with the roundabout on the western side at all? - why not have the northbound off slip just end at a give-way, and have the east-bound link road just split with lane 1 heading onto the northbound on slip and lane 2 going over the bridge towards the southbound on slip? It surely can't be related to U-turning considerations, as the Campions roundabout is going to be barely 200m away from the motorway junction anyway so it's not like you'd have to go that far to do so?
The design is a standard one that the contractors and drivers are used to. Keeps costs down and makes life easier.
Knowing how Harlow Council and Essex Council think, they are hedging their bets and allowing for the future conversion of the east roundabout so they can build houses out there. Having 4 lanes on the bridge also means that they don't have to close the entire junction when it comes to resurfacing.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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The God of Biscuits wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 14:48One thing I don't really get about the scheme is the design of the motorway junction itself. Fair enough that it doesn't warrant anything trumpet-like with free-flow in all directions, but why isn't the roundabout on the eastern side of the motorway a teardrop? - it only connects to slip roads on that side... And why is the overbridge marked out with two lanes eastbound? - the southbound on slip (which is the only place those lanes are going) only has one lane... And why bother with the roundabout on the western side at all? - why not have the northbound off slip just end at a give-way, and have the east-bound link road just split with lane 1 heading onto the northbound on slip and lane 2 going over the bridge towards the southbound on slip? It surely can't be related to U-turning considerations, as the Campions roundabout is going to be barely 200m away from the motorway junction anyway so it's not like you'd have to go that far to do so?

Basically, why wouldn't you make a compact three-arm GSJ look like something like this by default?: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/50% ... -4.1633234
I'm sure Bryn will comment on that, but essentially so much in the way of highway design these days seems to be about tick-box exercises and copy-and-paste solutions to ensure that you never deviate from the exact specifications of the standards, even where it would be eminently sensible to do so. Hence why new roads can't have 90 degree bends on them but can have a roundabout that involves a much tighter curve, among other things. The standards say that you use a roundabout and 2-lane connector roads, so by using a roundabout and 2-lane connector roads you are C'ing your A and not having to think about whether that is a remotely appropriate way of doing it or if it's just complete bat guano that is less safe, more confusing and will impede traffic flow.

(I am particularly impressed by this link on the hospital website: <a href="about:blank">Essex Highways Schemes and Developments</a>. Genius!)
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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Big Nick wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 17:46
The design is a standard one that the contractors and drivers are used to. Keeps costs down and makes life easier.
Knowing how Harlow Council and Essex Council think, they are hedging their bets and allowing for the future conversion of the east roundabout so they can build houses out there. Having 4 lanes on the bridge also means that they don't have to close the entire junction when it comes to resurfacing.
My understanding is that the site to the east is earmarked for a new hospital to replace PAH.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Big Nick »

c2R wrote:
Big Nick wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 17:46
The design is a standard one that the contractors and drivers are used to. Keeps costs down and makes life easier.
Knowing how Harlow Council and Essex Council think, they are hedging their bets and allowing for the future conversion of the east roundabout so they can build houses out there. Having 4 lanes on the bridge also means that they don't have to close the entire junction when it comes to resurfacing.
My understanding is that the site to the east is earmarked for a new hospital to replace PAH.
I'm pretty sure it's to the west between the Campions roundabout and the M11. My earlier link suggests the need to amend the link road to the M11.

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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Big Nick »

I drove past the works for this last week. The M11 is closed between J7 and J8 overnight, possibly only northbound for now.

The (northbound) speed limit is 50mph from after J7 until the edge of Sheering. The hard shoulder is barriered off. There is a large works compound in the fields either side, these are already visible on Google Maps. Lots of vehicles parked or moving around. The concrete embankments for the overbridge are over 3m high already.

Something is being done to the northbound offslip at J7 too. Lots of cones as if they're changing the road layout or markings. Might be to do with tailbacks and traffic management while the M11 is closed?
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by MayzieY »

According to One.Network, J7 works are HE but it's only currently showing NB on-slip, nothing at off-slip. The J7a scheme is ECC.
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