M11, New Junction 7a

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ROAD ROVER
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M11, New Junction 7a

Post by ROAD ROVER »

I came across this today. First l've heard of it but overdue l would have thought:

http://www.yourharlow.com/2019/06/14/ne ... 2uulvfZ-S0
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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ROAD ROVER
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by ROAD ROVER »

Ah, thanks. I see it's been mooted for quite some time.
Funny thing is, l did a search using the words in my title but after scanning the first two pages of results & not seeing any reference, figured it wasn't there. You wouldn't have thought that the omission of 'Harlow' would push the query quite so far down the list. Well l wouldn't anyway. :?
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Jon Waters »

Really worthy of a public inquiry with only 15 attending. They have already moved the Gas Main on the M11 to avoid conflict with the new junction and the utilities have been moved on Gilden Way. I thought that construction was to start this year
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c2R
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by c2R »

I'm still suprised that the junction is being built before the northern bypass - the traffic in the area is already bad during peak hours, and lots of the medium density housing going in is still under construction - so I would predict that it's going to be pretty bad once traffic starts re-routing this way to travel north from Harlow on the M11, and A414 traffic starts to join here rather than travelling down to Hastingwood.

Also this old thread here: viewtopic.php?t=36386 , wiki page here: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... le=M11_J7A
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From the SABRE Wiki: M11 J7A :

Junction 7A of the M11 is a northern junction for Harlow. Essex CC built a link road from the B183 to a dumbbell on the M11. The link road is a dual carriageway, with the junction itself providing space for a future A414 Harlow northern bypass to meet the M11 at this junction.

A previous plan was designed to force motorway-bound traffic heading through a tight 270° turn making space for a trumpet interchange with the proposed northern

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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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Works starts shortly and due for completion in September 2022.

Full details here
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by M5Lenzar »

No excuse for building a dumbbell with no road to the east of the junction. A trumpet is the no brainer option here.

With a dumbbell you're bound to get the land to the east snapped up and built on - making the junction under capacity.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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You and I know that. But development trumps capacity concerns.

Also DMRB now has deprecated trumpets - apparently loops are too complicated for drivers because of the sharp bends so much better to have tiny roundabout junctions........

I HATE that document so much.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Truvelo »

With the fuss they're making over the Lower Thames Crossing and the magnificent A2 junction you'd think they would at least built a directional T here. That way there would be no nasty loops for rookie drivers to lose control on and no roundabout for a developer to make a quick £.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 17:43 You and I know that. But development trumps capacity concerns.

Also DMRB now has deprecated trumpets - apparently loops are too complicated for drivers because of the sharp bends so much better to have tiny roundabout junctions........

I HATE that document so much.
Is this a new thing? I thought there was a bit in TD 22/06 debunking anti-loop prejudice provided they're built to standard.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Bryn666 »

TD22 has been replaced - the new document basically rules out trumpets except in "very limited circumstances".
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by trickstat »

M5Lenzar wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 15:44 No excuse for building a dumbbell with no road to the east of the junction. A trumpet is the no brainer option here.

With a dumbbell you're bound to get the land to the east snapped up and built on - making the junction under capacity.
Looking at the map on the link I thought "surely the people living in those houses to the south-east will oppose any new development?" However, a quick look on Google suggests they are not residential properties.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 20:12 TD22 has been replaced - the new document basically rules out trumpets except in "very limited circumstances".

Yes, a bit of a shock that. What it seems to rule out is a trumpet between two major roads, the concern being the high speed approach to the loop from the "lesser" road; not the loops off the mainline themselves (which is a bit of a suprise as that's often cited as the area of concern). In the context then of J7a, as it looks a fairly short run to the junction from the roundabout on the approach road (ans is it single carriageway?) this might be a case where in theory you could still have a trumpet layout - or have roundabout on west side as drawn but free flow links and loops on the east? Probably still would have difficulty getting such a layout approved, mind you.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Big Nick »

You can see some of the earthworks already started on Google Maps aerial photo.

Longterm (2030?) they want to link this junction to the A414 with a new road around the north of Harlow. That should reduce some pressure of the roads in town.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Chris5156 »

JonB2028 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 22:04
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 20:12 TD22 has been replaced - the new document basically rules out trumpets except in "very limited circumstances".
Yes, a bit of a shock that. What it seems to rule out is a trumpet between two major roads, the concern being the high speed approach to the loop from the "lesser" road; not the loops off the mainline themselves (which is a bit of a suprise as that's often cited as the area of concern). In the context then of J7a, as it looks a fairly short run to the junction from the roundabout on the approach road (ans is it single carriageway?) this might be a case where in theory you could still have a trumpet layout - or have roundabout on west side as drawn but free flow links and loops on the east? Probably still would have difficulty getting such a layout approved, mind you.
It will be a short run to the new motorway junction along the spur, but the whole layout is intended to be compatible with forming one end of a future Harlow northern bypass, so in its final configuration the new J7a could be the end of a fast major dual carriageway. That may be one reason a trumpet loop is considered unsuitable.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 09:01
JonB2028 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 22:04
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 20:12 TD22 has been replaced - the new document basically rules out trumpets except in "very limited circumstances".
Yes, a bit of a shock that. What it seems to rule out is a trumpet between two major roads, the concern being the high speed approach to the loop from the "lesser" road; not the loops off the mainline themselves (which is a bit of a suprise as that's often cited as the area of concern). In the context then of J7a, as it looks a fairly short run to the junction from the roundabout on the approach road (ans is it single carriageway?) this might be a case where in theory you could still have a trumpet layout - or have roundabout on west side as drawn but free flow links and loops on the east? Probably still would have difficulty getting such a layout approved, mind you.
It will be a short run to the new motorway junction along the spur, but the whole layout is intended to be compatible with forming one end of a future Harlow northern bypass, so in its final configuration the new J7a could be the end of a fast major dual carriageway. That may be one reason a trumpet loop is considered unsuitable.
It's remarkably dumb though, because you have to perform the same measures to slow traffic approaching a roundabout as well. And, as we have seen on the A90, A683, and the A14, drivers seem to utterly fail to spot the damn things.

How do the French cope where nearly every slip road is 50km/h loops?
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by jackal »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 20:12 TD22 has been replaced - the new document basically rules out trumpets except in "very limited circumstances".
Thanks for that. CD 122 is a bit of a weird document. Here's what it says about trumpets:

"A 3 way, 2 level 'trumpet' interchange has 2 way slip roads. It is not suitable for motorway to motorway
links or generally high speed approaches to the loop from the minor road. As the minor road could be of
a lesser standard to the major road, careful consideration is needed in relation to signing and preventing
unauthorised users (in the case of the major road being a motorway) from entering the major road."

It does seem unduly restrictive, and why the special concern about unauthorised users when this would apply to any GSJ between a motorway and non-motorway road? But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
Last edited by jackal on Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 20:12 TD22 has been replaced - the new document basically rules out trumpets except in "very limited circumstances".
Thanks for that. CD 122 is a bit of a weird document. Here's what it says about loops:

"A 3 way, 2 level 'trumpet' interchange has 2 way slip roads. It is not suitable for motorway to motorway
links or generally high speed approaches to the loop from the minor road. As the minor road could be of
a lesser standard to the major road, careful consideration is needed in relation to signing and preventing
unauthorised users (in the case of the major road being a motorway) from entering the major road."

It does seem unduly restrictive, and why the special concern about unauthorised users when this would apply to any GSJ between a motorway and non-motorway road? But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
You know by now HE have no idea how motorway regulations should be applied - look at the cock-ups at Blyth, the end of the M56, Catthorpe. It therefore figures they'd be terrified of the concept of a trumpet like the end of the M5 where one carriageway is motorway and the other isn't...

Your loophole seems correct to me - loops on exit, but then you have the high speed issue again. Not that it has prevented M6 J15 from being turned into a lane drop (70mph to 20mph in one go, excellent!)... add another black mark against ALR there then :roll:
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Big L »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:07 ....Not that it has prevented M6 J15 from being turned into a lane drop (70mph to 20mph in one go, excellent!)... add another black mark against ALR there then :roll:
You’ve mentioned this over in the smart motorway thread.

How is it worse than what was there before?

Before the roadworks you either had traffic pulling onto a slip road and braking “70-20” on a dedicated exit lane (just like there will be on the new setup except without the swerve to the left), or else they start braking before the slip road, ie in a lane not dedicated to the exit, which is surely worse?
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Re: M11, New Junction 7a

Post by Herned »

jackal wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:04 It does seem unduly restrictive, and why the special concern about unauthorised users when this would apply to any GSJ between a motorway and non-motorway road? But if I'm reading it right you could still use a trumpet provided the loop is the exit to the minor road.
With a roundabout there is an 'escape' option which a trumpet doesn't have. User stupidity really
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