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hat wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 07:58
on a connected note, is the 20mph limit that is applied through these sections actually mandatory or advisory? i don't think i've ever seen a vehicle actually stick to this. i always assumed it's an arse-cover to remove liability if some does actually skid on this loose surface.
The normal rule for maximum speed limits works here: if the sign includes a number in a red circle, a maximum speed limit is mandatory, otherwise it's advisory.
This rule works in a huge range of situations, and the only exceptions I've seen are nonstandard signs that use a red circle along with a countdown to say "speed limit change coming up soon". (Some of the nonstandard signs in question use a black rather than red circle to avoid violating the rule.)
c2R wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 22:16
I have, however, driven on roads in Germany that are more patching tar than actual surface.... As much as I hate surface dressing with a passion (especially when used inappropriately on high speed primary rural routes), there are disadvantages to alternative approaches as well.
Done well (i.e. including repairing the whole road structure where required) it's a perfectly reasonable method of repair on suitable roads. There was a lot of it going on around me a couple of years ago, for the most part you wouldn't know it was done that way (well people here probably would but not your average man on the street), but it was accompanied by quite a bit of digging right down and rebuilding in places rather than just chucking some tar and stones down on what was already there so I suspect it'll last well enough.
I agree that surface dressing can be done well; and absolutely it needs filling and patching properly first - on rural roads with light traffic, I'm sure that you can pretty much indefinitely keep the surface going with such an approach.
Its place however really isn't on fast NSL dual carraigeways with lots of HGV traffic....
If its done properly there shouldn't be an abundance of loose chippings everywhere for days. Halton Council did about 4 miles each way of the A557 Watkinson Way https://maps.app.goo.gl/XHYoxWarXmPUE2Fq9 a year or two ago and there wasn't any issues with stones everywhere and no daft advisory limits for weeks or even days afterwards. Surface has been fine since too.
2 sections on the north side of Shap, nice pile of gravel out of the wheel tracks...
Sections on the B7076 are a bit better though what I found odd was it was 2 way traffic except on a bridge over the A74(M) which was traffic light controlled but not width restricted.
c2R wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 22:16
I have, however, driven on roads in Germany that are more patching tar than actual surface.... As much as I hate surface dressing with a passion (especially when used inappropriately on high speed primary rural routes), there are disadvantages to alternative approaches as well.
Done well (i.e. including repairing the whole road structure where required) it's a perfectly reasonable method of repair on suitable roads. There was a lot of it going on around me a couple of years ago, for the most part you wouldn't know it was done that way (well people here probably would but not your average man on the street), but it was accompanied by quite a bit of digging right down and rebuilding in places rather than just chucking some tar and stones down on what was already there so I suspect it'll last well enough.
I came across a minor road in eastern Germany two years ago where the whole road was a series of patches as far as I could see ahead. I slowed right down, but I needn't have bothered as it was smooth and apart from knowing one was going over the patches, there was no bumping at the joints. It was a real showpiece of expertise in road repairs. Would that they'd come to England to show us how !
I doubt there's any maximum limit, some LAs may have in-house guidelines. With some using surface dressing as an alternative to resurfacing that may be why longer stretches are now being laid.
Leics CC did about 300m last summer outside their highways depot, now last week they've done another 400m, I expect next summer they'll decide to do another short stretch. I'd prefer longer stretches just for consistency instead of lots of differently ageing patches.
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darkcape wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 22:31
I doubt there's any maximum limit, some LAs may have in-house guidelines. With some using surface dressing as an alternative to resurfacing that may be why longer stretches are now being laid.
Leics CC did about 300m last summer outside their highways depot, now last week they've done another 400m, I expect next summer they'll decide to do another short stretch. I'd prefer longer rstretches just for consistency instead of lots of differently ageing patches.
Probably so that those who sanctioned it can get out of the depot and to avoid it. Meanwhile those who can't avoid it risk chipped paint and cracked windscreens. I say this through bitter experience.
My wife's Passat got a cracked windscreen from oncoming traffic despite taking all precautions on the A605 a couple of years ago. Emailed Northants County Council and got their standard fob off reply.
Hence, if I know what roads have been surfaced dressed, I avoid them for at least a good month if possible.
This stuff might save Councils money, but the external costs in terms of windscreen replacements and paint chip repairs etc. get shifted to those who have to drive on this horrible stuff.
Bit of an update. It seems our glorious leaders have now stuck another load of bitumen on top of the gravel that's left after the ttacffic . Its been a while since I've seen surface dressing done but I assume this is a normal part of proceedings?
rhyds wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 20:00
Is there any reason (better than usual weather, late start to the surface dressing season) that these sections are so long, or are they usually around this length?
No idea re the technical aspects, but a few years ago Devon CC used surface dressing on the A361 west of Tiverton for at least 5 miles in one continuous set of works. The 20mph speed limit for the next few weeks was somewhat torturous
A couple of years ago they also hit one of the faster chunks of the A380 with the dreaded chippings - nothing was doing 20mph though
It's certainly surface dressing season in Worcestershire, I've encountered stretches on A448 between Kidderminster and Bromsgrove and A441 just south of the border with Birmingham. The former is quite an extensive stretch, though it must be nearing the sweeping-up and re-marking stage, as there didn't seem to be too much loose stuff. Quite a lot of dust, though.
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Bit of a thread bump, but on an essential journey the other day I ended up driving through a section of surface dressing on the A470/A487 that was six miles long, and had an advisory 10mph speed limit for the whole distance (which nobody was adhering to).
ais523 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 17:16The normal rule for maximum speed limits works here: if the sign includes a number in a red circle, a maximum speed limit is mandatory, otherwise it's advisory.
Or even more simply put: if the sign says it is the maximum speed then it is not the maximum speed allowed, but if the sign does not say it is a maximum speed then it is the maximum speed allowed.
Surfacing dressing just shows how little regard is given to people not on four wheels. As with mark3evo above, I do my best to avoid it.
Once I was coming up to a signed offline lay-by to my right on a road in Suffolk. One side of the lay-by was very muddy so I steered to avoid that (I once broke my elbow after catching mud on a bend). However what I did not see, because there it had no visible difference, was that to the other edge of the lay-by entrance the road surface ended in just a pile loose stones from sometime in the past when the road was surfaced dressed. As I was still turning, the bike was not straightened up, and over we went.
For all the claims of how safe it is when done properly, in the real world for some of us it is not just a chip on the windscreen for the insurance company to pay for but but an actual hazard that makes roads unusable. Even long after the road has been dressed, because the method in part relies on traffic passing over it to help the surface stick, it wears out very quickly in the middle of a lane. Without the pressure from the weight of cars and lorries it does not get properly compacted, so the area mainly used by motorcycles stills ends up with up with loose stones and poor road surfaces.
If I find myself in a situation where I need to travel on a newly dressed road I stick to the left car tyre position, furthest from oncoming vehicles and where the stones should have been compacted and flung aside. And I take corners as slow as I feel I need to, just having to hope that aggressive car drivers behind do not try to do anything stupid.
ais523 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 17:16The normal rule for maximum speed limits works here: if the sign includes a number in a red circle, a maximum speed limit is mandatory, otherwise it's advisory.
Or even more simply put: if the sign says it is the maximum speed then it is not the maximum speed allowed, but if the sign does not say it is a maximum speed then it is the maximum speed allowed.
Surfacing dressing just shows how little regard is given to people not on four wheels. As with mark3evo above, I do my best to avoid it.
Once I was coming up to a signed offline lay-by to my right on a road in Suffolk. One side of the lay-by was very muddy so I steered to avoid that (I once broke my elbow after catching mud on a bend). However what I did not see, because there it had no visible difference, was that to the other edge of the lay-by entrance the road surface ended in just a pile loose stones from sometime in the past when the road was surfaced dressed. As I was still turning, the bike was not straightened up, and over we went.
For all the claims of how safe it is when done properly, in the real world for some of us it is not just a chip on the windscreen for the insurance company to pay for but but an actual hazard that makes roads unusable. Even long after the road has been dressed, because the method in part relies on traffic passing over it to help the surface stick, it wears out very quickly in the middle of a lane. Without the pressure from the weight of cars and lorries it does not get properly compacted, so the area mainly used by motorcycles stills ends up with up with loose stones and poor road surfaces.
If I find myself in a situation where I need to travel on a newly dressed road I stick to the left car tyre position, furthest from oncoming vehicles and where the stones should have been compacted and flung aside. And I take corners as slow as I feel I need to, just having to hope that aggressive car drivers behind do not try to do anything stupid.
Even for cars its not particularly safe either. In this particular case the surface dressed section included this junction. The job has been done as one big dump of stone and tarmac across what is effectively three lanes. Going from one to the other in a Focus weighing the best part of 1.3 metric tonnes felt "floaty" enough, never mind for cyclists or motorcyclists (and of course all the fun of doing it sans road markings).
The other confusing issue is this section of road (from the A470/A487 junction to the end of the S2+1 climbing lane) is only seven years old, having been massively upgraded and realigned in 2013. Quite why the surface needed re-doing with surface dressing within less than a decade is utterly baffling.
The other confusing issue is this section of road (from the A470/A487 junction to the end of the S2+1 climbing lane) is only seven years old, having been massively upgraded and realigned in 2013. Quite why the surface needed re-doing with surface dressing within less than a decade is utterly baffling.
Not really baffling. It is the result of the DfT bullying councils to stop using Hot Rolled Asphalt. HRA lasts for decades and was the norm until the DfT were beguiled by other materials that can last as little as 5 years.
The other confusing issue is this section of road (from the A470/A487 junction to the end of the S2+1 climbing lane) is only seven years old, having been massively upgraded and realigned in 2013. Quite why the surface needed re-doing with surface dressing within less than a decade is utterly baffling.
Not really baffling. It is the result of the DfT bullying councils to stop using Hot Rolled Asphalt. HRA lasts for decades and was the norm until the DfT were beguiled by other materials that can last as little as 5 years.
This is a North/Mid Wales Trunk Road, so would be under Welsh govt standards which may be different. Also, I used this stretch regularly pre lockdown and there was zero signs of degradation or breakup from what I could see. One idea that's been suggested locally is that its to improve skid resistance, though its not high friction surfacing, just normal "throw down some tar, throw down some gravel and let the cars squidge it down" surface dressing.
