Surface dressing: is there a maximum distance?

[rhyds]

At the moment the wonderful folks at NMWTRA are surface dressing the trunk roads around here, however for some reason the stretches being done seem to be much longer than usual.

On the A494 for example, there are about three stretches around two miles each between Bontnewydd and Llanuwchllyn (which is only around nine miles of road) and there are also long sections on the A5.

Is there any reason (better than usual weather, late start to the surface dressing season) that these sections are so long, or are they usually around this length?

[avtur]

.... At the moment the wonderful folks at NMWTRA are surface dressing the trunk roads around here .....

Sorry ... a bit of a rant ...

Please give us a chance, I've no idea what NMWTRA is, I don't know if that just makes me plain ignorant, maybe it does.

I thought the convention was that when using acronyms the first time you use them you write out the full name and then move to the acronym on further use. I don't know if the location is really important to the value of your post but if you think it is then please give us a chance at identifying what on earth NMWTRA actually means ...

rant off ....

[rhyds]

.... At the moment the wonderful folks at NMWTRA are surface dressing the trunk roads around here .....

Sorry ... a bit of a rant ...

Please give us a chance, I've no idea what NMWTRA is, I don't know if that just makes me plain ignorant, maybe it does.

I thought the convention was that when using acronyms the first time you use them you write out the full name and then move to the acronym on further use. I don't know if the location is really important to the value of your post but if you think it is then please give us a chance at identifying what on earth NMWTRA actually means ...

rant off ....

North And Mid Wales Trunk Roads Agency.

[c2R]

.... At the moment the wonderful folks at NMWTRA are surface dressing the trunk roads around here .....

Sorry ... a bit of a rant ...

Please give us a chance, I've no idea what NMWTRA is, I don't know if that just makes me plain ignorant, maybe it does.

I thought the convention was that when using acronyms the first time you use them you write out the full name and then move to the acronym on further use. I don't know if the location is really important to the value of your post but if you think it is then please give us a chance at identifying what on earth NMWTRA actually means ...

rant off ....

North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agent

[Herned]

Is there any reason (better than usual weather, late start to the surface dressing season) that these sections are so long, or are they usually around this length?

No idea re the technical aspects, but a few years ago Devon CC used surface dressing on the A361 west of Tiverton for at least 5 miles in one continuous set of works. The 20mph speed limit for the next few weeks was somewhat torturous

[fras]

I have never seen surface-dressed roads in Germany, or at least nothing that seems like we lay down. Their roads are also like billiard tables compared to our obstacle courses.

[c2R]

I have never seen surface-dressed roads in Germany, or at least nothing that seems like we lay down. Their roads are also like billiard tables compared to our obstacle courses.

I have, however, driven on roads in Germany that are more patching tar than actual surface.... As much as I hate surface dressing with a passion (especially when used inappropriately on high speed primary rural routes), there are disadvantages to alternative approaches as well.

[NICK 647063]

Well I’m Just pleased that in England we don’t surface dress trunk roads!

As for distance all works are planned months in advance so the length of the sections won’t be down to the weather or anything like that, maybe that more money is available to do longer sections, I know in North Yorkshire they often do long sections, I remember one road getting done that was 10 miles long.....as far as I’m aware there is no maximum distance as they can do it over a number of days.

[Conekicker]

Well I’m Just pleased that in England we don’t surface dress trunk roads!

As for distance all works are planned months in advance so the length of the sections won’t be down to the weather or anything like that, maybe that more money is available to do longer sections, I know in North Yorkshire they often do long sections, I remember one road getting done that was 10 miles long.....as far as I’m aware there is no maximum distance as they can do it over a number of days.

The M62 to the east of Ferrybridge was surface dressed about 25 years ago.

Very surprisingly cough it didn't last all that long.

[jervi]

Going a bit off topic, what other types of surfacing is there? Surely it is all just just the same, bloop some tar and stones down then roll over it and call it a day?

[c2R]

It's about method as well as materials - surface dressing is putting tar down and chucking a load of stones at it, and then sweeping up the excess that hasn't stuck.

You could instead patch and not surface dress, as they do in Germany. You could also scrape off the surafce layer and put some hot rolled ashpelt down. Or you could use different surfaces in the first place, like concrete*

* not that I'm recommending that...

[NICK 647063]

The M62 to the east of Ferrybridge was surface dressed about 25 years ago.

Very surprisingly cough it didn't last all that long.

Yes they used to but thankfully now Highways England don’t permit surface dressing.

[hat]

on a connected note, is the 20mph limit that is applied through these sections actually mandatory or advisory? i don't think i've ever seen a vehicle actually stick to this. i always assumed it's an arse-cover to remove liability if some does actually skid on this loose surface.

[Chris Bertram]

on a connected note, is the 20mph limit that is applied through these sections actually mandatory or advisory? i don't think i've ever seen a vehicle actually stick to this. i always assumed it's an arse-cover to remove liability if some does actually skid on this loose surface.

If it's on a plate below the "Loose chippings" triangle sign, saying "Maximum Speed 20 mph", then I believe it's advisory. If it's a number in a red ring, then yes it is mandatory. I saw this applied on A435 south of M42 J3 when that was surface dressed. As the normal speed limit for that road is NSL (70 for a dualled road), it meant that the speed limit was reduced by a whole 50 mph! And no, it wasn't being widely observed.

[c2R]

I've seen mandatory roadworks speed limits and lane closures where it has been applied to nsl rural dual carriageways, but the max speed 20 signs are advisory only.

[A303Chris]

on a connected note, is the 20mph limit that is applied through these sections actually mandatory or advisory? i don't think i've ever seen a vehicle actually stick to this. i always assumed it's an arse-cover to remove liability if some does actually skid on this loose surface.

Usually it's advisory but can catch you out in an insurance claim.

About 25 years ago when at Berkshire CC we surfaced dressed a road and a BMW driver sent in a claim saying he was doing 60mph three days after the road was surfaced with loose chippings and stones have cracked the windscreen , paint etc. It was thrown out on the grounds that as the signs were advising that the safe speed was 20 mph, as he was driving above that, he took a risk and therefore was to blame.

[Stevie D]

on a connected note, is the 20mph limit that is applied through these sections actually mandatory or advisory? i don't think i've ever seen a vehicle actually stick to this. i always assumed it's an arse-cover to remove liability if some does actually skid on this loose surface.

East Riding have taken to using some advisory signs and some mandatory signs interspersed within the same section of road. These were left in place up to 3 weeks after the last loose stone had gone and 2 weeks after the lines had been repainted. Not all of the permanent signs had been covered up. No end of restriction signs were in place. I don't for one second believe it was legally enforceable, and TBH I doubt they even had the legal gubbins in place for the mandatory limit. But they have always treated drivers with contempt and ignored DfT guidance and regulations, so why change now?

[Helvellyn]

I have, however, driven on roads in Germany that are more patching tar than actual surface.... As much as I hate surface dressing with a passion (especially when used inappropriately on high speed primary rural routes), there are disadvantages to alternative approaches as well.

Done well (i.e. including repairing the whole road structure where required) it's a perfectly reasonable method of repair on suitable roads. There was a lot of it going on around me a couple of years ago, for the most part you wouldn't know it was done that way (well people here probably would but not your average man on the street), but it was accompanied by quite a bit of digging right down and rebuilding in places rather than just chucking some tar and stones down on what was already there so I suspect it'll last well enough.

[rhyds]

on a connected note, is the 20mph limit that is applied through these sections actually mandatory or advisory? i don't think i've ever seen a vehicle actually stick to this. i always assumed it's an arse-cover to remove liability if some does actually skid on this loose surface.

East Riding have taken to using some advisory signs and some mandatory signs interspersed within the same section of road. These were left in place up to 3 weeks after the last loose stone had gone and 2 weeks after the lines had been repainted. Not all of the permanent signs had been covered up. No end of restriction signs were in place. I don't for one second believe it was legally enforceable, and TBH I doubt they even had the legal gubbins in place for the mandatory limit. But they have always treated drivers with contempt and ignored DfT guidance and regulations, so why change now?

These sections are all NSL, so no permanent signs to cover up. What we got was random temporary 40mph signs placed many days in advance (so mostly ignored) and the "Cyflymder Uchaf 10mya / Max Speed 10mph" signs when work started. Most were not sticking to the 10mph limit, and most were sticking to 40. The actual "running" lane areas were pretty good, but the thick strips of gravel were enough to make the back end of one's car step out if so encouraged...

[trickstat]

I've driven quite a few sections over the years where the advisory 20 signs are still up on an NSL S2 road but there are little or no loose chippings still left on the surface. In these situations many people tend to drive at 40 or just over.