Newcastle - Options

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Gav
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Newcastle - Options

Post by Gav »

So Newcastle and the A1.... What options exist to resolve this and provide a motorway bypass...

1. Upgrade of the existing A1
2. Upgrade of the A194(M) and A19 corridor mostly on line upgrades with grade separation as required. use the tunnel route.
3. Offline upgrade along the exiting A1 corridor
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Pendlemac
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Pendlemac »

A1(M) / A194(M) diverge to A1 / A19 junction is around 19km, so a double Lærdalstunnelen would do it. :D :driving: :stir:
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Petrichor »

Close every single entrance on to the A1 between junctions 65 and 79, so the road actually serves as a bypass and not a local road. Problem solved.
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Achmelvic
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Achmelvic »

What are the traffic figures for vehicles completely bypassing Tyneside vs those using the current western bypass more locally, eg between junctions or from outside going to a junction like the Metro centre, A69, A184, A696 etc?

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vlad
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by vlad »

Petrichor wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 15:24 Close every single entrance on to the A1 between junctions 65 and 79, so the road actually serves as a bypass and not a local road. Problem solved.
That's going to annoy A69 and A696 traffic to say the least!
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Berk
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Berk »

Tough. It’d be cheaper and easier to build a grade-separated arterial road. The A1 can then go back to having normal, not sub-standard lanes.
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Surely almost all big conurbations have the same issue - long-distance traffic trying to bypass the conurbation mixing with local traffic trying to move around the local area.

In a perfect world, the North-east would have a motorway for through traffic plus a distributor road for local traffic, both with GSJs.
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KeithW
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by KeithW »

Berk wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 20:18 Tough. It’d be cheaper and easier to build a grade-separated arterial road. The A1 can then go back to having normal, not sub-standard lanes.
They started to to do that with the Central Motorway and realised that demolishing a large part of the city centre was not the optimum solution. The reality is that if you close the western bypass to local traffic Newcastle will grind to a halt. Western Newcastle is a major economic centre and there is no free space to build a new road but widening may be possible. The roads to the west (A695 and A69) are vital transport arteries at the regional and national level so you cannot simply isolate them. The ultimate bottleneck is the D2 Blaydon Bridge.

Over the years an increasing percentage of through traffic has switched to the A19 up to Jarrow rejoining the A1 at Seaton Burn and upgrading the A19 may be more doable that upgrading the A1. A good start would be removing the tolls on the Tyne Tunnel. The AADT on the A1(M) Darlington bypass (40k) and the A19 Wolviston Bypass (50k) tell the story and the A19 IS being upgraded.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by NICK 647063 »

Over the years an increasing percentage of through traffic has switched to the A19 up to Jarrow rejoining the A1 at Seaton Burn and upgrading the A19 may be more doable that upgrading the A1. A good start would be removing the tolls on the Tyne Tunnel. The AADT on the A1(M) Darlington bypass (40k) and the A19 Wolviston Bypass (50k) tell the story and the A19 IS being upgraded.
But I can almost guarantee the A1(M) Darlington bypass AADT you give is more through non local traffic, whereas the A19 will be more local Middlesbrough to Newcastle and places in between..... our company uses a number of vans and have to travel often between Sunderland and Leeds our choice is the A690, A1(M) and A64 into Leeds, the A1(M) is far more reliable now it’s upgraded and also as it’s motorway we can run at 70mph unlike the A168/A19 where we are limited to 60mph and often the speed van is out so we would be forced to go 60, also Middlesbrough isn’t good in rush hour as it has the same issues with local movements on the A19....

I think since all the North Yorkshire section of the A1 became the A1(M) we never even think of the A19 anymore and bear in mind Sunderland is on the A19 and it’s still quicker to make our way to the A1(M) for journeys south.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Chris5156 »

Achmelvic wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 17:08What are the traffic figures for vehicles completely bypassing Tyneside vs those using the current western bypass more locally, eg between junctions or from outside going to a junction like the Metro centre, A69, A184, A696 etc?
I don't think such figures are publicly available - the DfT releases annual figures for individual lengths of road, but not origin/destination data which normally comes from detailed surveys rather than simple traffic counts.

That said, I'd be astonished if through traffic on the A1 (i.e. vehicles making a journey where both end-points are outside the Tyneside conurbation) constituted more than 10% of all traffic. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much less than that. On roads in urban areas, most traffic is starting its journey, or finishing its journey, or both, entirely within the urban area. The "Western Bypass" is almost certainly a misnomer; it's the Western Distributor.

Given that position, there probably isn't the traffic to justify some sort of wide outer bypass of Tyneside for through traffic. Look at the roads it would lead to just a few miles outside - the A1 north, A696 and A69 all deteriorate to single carriageway once they get out of the commuter belt. Deduct the traffic on those roads that is going to or from Newcastle and you really don't need a motorway to cater for the vehicles heading elsewhere.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

I travelled south on the A1 round Newcastle last Thursday, mid-morning - my perception was that most traffic was local as I got a free run in the outside lane with no-one queuing behind my caravan - that was the easiest I've ever got round Newcastle though.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by cb a1 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 23:42
Achmelvic wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 17:08What are the traffic figures for vehicles completely bypassing Tyneside vs those using the current western bypass more locally, eg between junctions or from outside going to a junction like the Metro centre, A69, A184, A696 etc?
I don't think such figures are publicly available - the DfT releases annual figures for individual lengths of road, but not origin/destination data which normally comes from detailed surveys rather than simple traffic counts.

That said, I'd be astonished if through traffic on the A1 (i.e. vehicles making a journey where both end-points are outside the Tyneside conurbation) constituted more than 10% of all traffic.
When I did some work on this, must be near 20 years ago now, less than 10% of the vehicles entering from the south exited at the north.

For the >90% of non-local traffic the bypass functions a distributor road as Newcastle and Gateshead is their destination.

After Newcastle, there isn't any significant destination until you get to Edinburgh. From most of England, if you're going to Edinburgh you're more likely to use the west coast rather than the east.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by roadtester »

I think significant further widening of the Western Bypass or a bypass of the bypass probably aren't realistic options at the moment.

Probably doing more work on the A19/Tyne Tunnels corridor would alleviate things a bit without being a total solution.

I suspect that we will just have to live with the problems for the time being.

Last week, when I was on my way back from meeting up with Owain and exiled in Inverness before they set off on the main part of the road-trip, I got to Newcastle about tea-time.

At that stage, I hadn't decided whether to do the whole journey home to Cambs or whether to break the journey with an overnight stay in the northeast. As I approached the junction with the B6324, I could see that the A1 beyond was absolutely chocker. I just couldn't face an evening of crawl so I immediately pulled off for a break and booked somewhere to stay on the north side of the city that I could get to without needing to get back on to the A1.

The next morning, I headed south skirting past the main part of central Newcastle, over I think the Redheugh Bridge and then picked up the A19.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Glenn A »

KeithW wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 21:11
Berk wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 20:18 Tough. It’d be cheaper and easier to build a grade-separated arterial road. The A1 can then go back to having normal, not sub-standard lanes.
They started to to do that with the Central Motorway and realised that demolishing a large part of the city centre was not the optimum solution. The reality is that if you close the western bypass to local traffic Newcastle will grind to a halt. Western Newcastle is a major economic centre and there is no free space to build a new road but widening may be possible. The roads to the west (A695 and A69) are vital transport arteries at the regional and national level so you cannot simply isolate them. The ultimate bottleneck is the D2 Blaydon Bridge.

Over the years an increasing percentage of through traffic has switched to the A19 up to Jarrow rejoining the A1 at Seaton Burn and upgrading the A19 may be more doable that upgrading the A1. A good start would be removing the tolls on the Tyne Tunnel. The AADT on the A1(M) Darlington bypass (40k) and the A19 Wolviston Bypass (50k) tell the story and the A19 IS being upgraded.
The main obstacle to traffic using the A19 over the A1 are the tolls and the occasional queues at the toll boths in the rush hour. Removing the tolls and widening the A19 where it goes into a mostly rural environment north of the A1058 would make it more attractive and reduce traffic on the western by pass.
The A1 can't really be widened without demolishing more houses, and since these are mostly private on the Blaydon Bridge- Denton roundabout section, there's the cost of compulsory purchase.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Chris5156 »

roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:37I think significant further widening of the Western Bypass or a bypass of the bypass probably aren't realistic options at the moment.
Glenn A wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:45The A1 can't really be widened without demolishing more houses, and since these are mostly private on the Blaydon Bridge- Denton roundabout section, there's the cost of compulsory purchase.
Highways England disagree! :wink:
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by roadtester »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 16:30
roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:37I think significant further widening of the Western Bypass or a bypass of the bypass probably aren't realistic options at the moment.
Glenn A wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:45The A1 can't really be widened without demolishing more houses, and since these are mostly private on the Blaydon Bridge- Denton roundabout section, there's the cost of compulsory purchase.
Highways England disagree! :wink:
That looks more like remarking than widening!
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Glenn A »

roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 16:32
Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 16:30
roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:37I think significant further widening of the Western Bypass or a bypass of the bypass probably aren't realistic options at the moment.
Glenn A wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:45The A1 can't really be widened without demolishing more houses, and since these are mostly private on the Blaydon Bridge- Denton roundabout section, there's the cost of compulsory purchase.
Highways England disagree! :wink:
That looks more like remarking than widening!
Yes they're narrow lanes, which is better than what we have now. However, a full widening would entail demolishing hundreds of houses in West Denton and Newburn, and as they are mostly owner occupied and some owners could decide to hold out, this would prove very expensive.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by roadtester »

Well I agree it could be an improvement but I doubt the capacity of three narrow lanes is anything like as good as that of three full-width lanes.

IME, drivers are very reluctant to run alongside each other where there are narrow lanes and the resulting staggering of cars in different lanes must reduce flow quite a bit.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Rob590 »

The Western Bypass runs better than previously since the work completed last year (or the year before?). But it desperately needs completing with the Birtley to Coal House widening. Southbound the lane drop at Coal House roundabout is the issue pinchpoint, whereas northbound the problem is more the weaving across multiple lane gains and drops between Chester-le-Street and the Team Valley.

I think that if that project can be pushed on and if it can be done well then it will remain a busy road but hopefully one which generally flows.
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Re: Newcastle - Options

Post by Chris5156 »

roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 17:44Well I agree it could be an improvement but I doubt the capacity of three narrow lanes is anything like as good as that of three full-width lanes.
That's true, but experience on the sections that have already been widened this way suggests that it very definitely has greater capacity than two ordinary lanes.

The three-lane schemes on the Western Bypass are being done on a shoestring, no doubt about it, but they do at least work. It sort of fits, I suppose, that Highways England are reluctant to spend big money on improving a trunk road when it would mostly benefit local traffic.
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