Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

[Fluid Dynamics]

Hmm, no effect? It reduced them to zombie status, with no existence other than lines on "historic" maps.

Yes, no effect. The removal was that of the LGA 1888 Administrative Counties, not the historic counties themselves...

I am looking forward to the follow up work in the series Things that have the same name as a council area cease to exist when that council is abolished entitled Why Bournemouth is now a figment of your imagination...

So my place of birth has been part of four different council areas in the space of less than half a century.

1888 - 1974: Hampshire
1974 - 1997: Dorset
1997 - 2019: Bournemouth Borough Council
2019: BCP council.

As I was born a year after Bournemouth became a unitary authority in its own right, I have always been under the impression that my home county is Dorset, seeing as I would have gone by ceremonial counties at the time (Saying i’m from the county of Bournemouth makes no sense for geographical reasons). Since discovering this site however, I have been surprised to learn that I was actually born and bred in Hampshire, not Dorset as I first thought. Well that’s if everyone goes by historical counties of course!

I can certainly remember watching Hampshire play cricket at Dean Park Cricket Ground well into the 1980s, a significantly time after the boundaries had changed.

[trickstat]

Although they no longer exist as, for want of a better phrase, County Councils, those various entities that were established in 1974 to some extent still exist geographically as the constituent parts have not been re-absorbed into their respective traditional counties (e.g Tyne & Wear into Northumberland and Durham, West Midlands into Warwicks, Staffs and Worcester, Merseyside into Lancashire and Cheshire). Of course, it would have been rather strange to move Birmingham into Warwickshire CC at about the same time as the likes of Nottingham and Leicester were made unitary authorities!

Tyne and Wear can be said to exist on a map if you put a line around the area covered by Newcastle, Gateshead, Sunderland, North Tyneside and South Tyneside.

Some County Councils still do exist. North Yorkshire County Council and Cambridgeshire County Council for example. North Yorkshire County Council is the direct successor of the North Riding County Council while Cambridgeshire County Council had a gap of 2 years when it was established that the merger of the old CC and the Isle Of Ely was a bad idea. In this case Peterborough was spun off as a unitary authority but work together to the point of having the same Chief Executive Officer. The main difference is that the responsibility for highways policy was often transferred to large metropolitan authorities which I view as something of a mistake as it leads to fragmented policies and wasteful duplication. A classic case was the proposed East Middlesbrough bypass which ended up divided between the Borough councils of Middlesbrough and Redcar & Cleveland and was never built. There are strong indicators that something along these lines may now be resurrected by the Tees Valley Combined Authority.

Hertfordshire is one of the counties that so far has seen no changes in its set-up and retains a County Council along with 10 district/borough Councils. I say so far because there is a distinct possibility of it being split into 2 or 3 unitary authorities at some stage in the future. Personally I think this is a good idea as people tend to feel more closely attached and interested in their local district/borough but they are actually responsible for very little (e.g. planning, parks, waste collection) compared with the more politically anonymous County Council and the economies of scale are probably better.

In terms of highways, the North-South routes in Herts tend to be well-served by various motorways and former trunk roads. This leaves the east-west routes (with the exception of the M25) with the County Council. The creation of unitary authorities is likely to split many of these up. For example, the A414 is highly unlikely to be in the same authority both at its western end in Hemel Hempstead and east of Hertford where it enters Essex. Therefore this could be a problem.

[trickstat]

Yes, no effect. The removal was that of the LGA 1888 Administrative Counties, not the historic counties themselves...

I am looking forward to the follow up work in the series Things that have the same name as a council area cease to exist when that council is abolished entitled Why Bournemouth is now a figment of your imagination...

So my place of birth has been part of four different council areas in the space of less than half a century.

1888 - 1974: Hampshire
1974 - 1997: Dorset
1997 - 2019: Bournemouth Borough Council
2019: BCP council.

As I was born a year after Bournemouth became a unitary authority in its own right, I have always been under the impression that my home county is Dorset, seeing as I would have gone by ceremonial counties at the time (Saying i’m from the county of Bournemouth makes no sense for geographical reasons). Since discovering this site however, I have been surprised to learn that I was actually born and bred in Hampshire, not Dorset as I first thought. Well that’s if everyone goes by historical counties of course!

I can certainly remember watching Hampshire play cricket at Dean Park Cricket Ground well into the 1980s, a significantly time after the boundaries had changed.

Cricket (along with other generally amateur sports) is something of a throwback as regards Counties. Lancashire are based at Old Trafford in Trafford in what was Greater Manchester, Warwickshire at Edgbaston in Birmingham in the former West Midlands, Gloucestershire at Bristol that was in Avon and is now considered a county in its own right, Surrey at the Oval which I don't think has politically been in Surrey since the 19th century while Lords is the base for Middlesex that hasn't existed politically for a number of decades.

[Fluid Dynamics]

So my place of birth has been part of four different council areas in the space of less than half a century.

1888 - 1974: Hampshire
1974 - 1997: Dorset
1997 - 2019: Bournemouth Borough Council
2019: BCP council.

As I was born a year after Bournemouth became a unitary authority in its own right, I have always been under the impression that my home county is Dorset, seeing as I would have gone by ceremonial counties at the time (Saying i’m from the county of Bournemouth makes no sense for geographical reasons). Since discovering this site however, I have been surprised to learn that I was actually born and bred in Hampshire, not Dorset as I first thought. Well that’s if everyone goes by historical counties of course!

I can certainly remember watching Hampshire play cricket at Dean Park Cricket Ground well into the 1980s, a significantly time after the boundaries had changed.

Cricket (along with other generally amateur sports) is something of a throwback as regards Counties. Lancashire are based at Old Trafford in Trafford in what was Greater Manchester, Warwickshire at Edgbaston in Birmingham in the former West Midlands, Gloucestershire at Bristol that was in Avon and is now considered a county in its own right, Surrey at the Oval which I don't think has politically been in Surrey since the 19th century while Lords is the base for Middlesex that hasn't existed politically for a number of decades.

Totally take your points on board, but the difference with Bournemouth is that the change did not (initially) occur due to Bournemouth becoming a metropolitan or unitary authority, but from it transferring from Hampshire CC to Dorset CC.

There are some weird ones out there. Knockholt village in Kent was originally part of Kent County and Orpington Urban District. When Greater London was created in 1965 it formed part of the London Borough of Bromley, but after a local campaign it was transferred back to Kent in 1969 and is now part of Sevenoaks District Council.

[Steven]

Of course, it would have been rather strange to move Birmingham into Warwickshire CC at about the same time as the likes of Nottingham and Leicester were made unitary authorities!

See, this is where there is massive misunderstandings about the 1888 - 1974 County Councils.

Birmingham was never administered by Warwickshire County Council. It was a County Borough, so was completely separate - in a similar way to modern "unitary authorities"; with more powers than a County Council, which was one of two tiers. It is however, in the historic county of Warwickshire.

[trickstat]

Of course, it would have been rather strange to move Birmingham into Warwickshire CC at about the same time as the likes of Nottingham and Leicester were made unitary authorities!

See, this is where there is massive misunderstandings about the 1888 - 1974 County Councils.

Birmingham was never administered by Warwickshire County Council. It was a County Borough, so was completely separate - in a similar way to modern "unitary authorities"; with more powers than a County Council, which was one of two tiers. It is however, in the historic county of Warwickshire.

As a further complication, in England there are now County or, in some cases 'County' Councils that are actually unitary. I say 'County' as some of them exclude certain parts that are separately unitary either as the modern equivalent of County Boroughs or because they were previously part of a 'county' that was founded in 1974. In England, I think these are Cornwall, Dorset (less Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole), Isle of Wight, Wiltshire (less Swindon), Rutland, Shropshire (less Telford & Wrekin), Durham (less parts of the former Cleveland and Tyne & Wear), Northumberland (less the remainder of Tyne & Wear) and, arguably, East Riding of Yorkshire (less Hull).

I think a similar set-up applies across much of Wales (e.g. Powys, Ceredigion, Gwynedd) while, for example, the densely populated historic county of Glamorgan is split into many unitary authorities? For work reasons I am not so sure about Scotland but I think it may be similar to Wales?

[KeithW]

As a further complication, in England there are now County or, in some cases 'County' Councils that are actually unitary. I say 'County' as some of them exclude certain parts that are separately unitary either as the modern equivalent of County Boroughs or because they were previously part of a 'county' that was founded in 1974. In England, I think these are Cornwall, Dorset (less Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole), Isle of Wight, Wiltshire (less Swindon), Rutland, Shropshire (less Telford & Wrekin), Durham (less parts of the former Cleveland and Tyne & Wear), Northumberland (less the remainder of Tyne & Wear) and, arguably, East Riding of Yorkshire (less Hull).

Hull was made a County Borough independent of the East Riding of Yorkshire from 1888. For a period (1972 to 1996) it was a non-metropolitan district of the County of Humberside until that council was abolished and it is now a unitary authority which to all intents and purposes means it has reverted to its previous state although I suspect there have been some boundary changes.

Pretty much the same thing happened to Middlesbrough which became a a county borough within the North Riding of Yorkshire between in 1889 and 1968, when it was merged with a number of others to form the County Borough of Teesside, which in turn was was absorbed in 1974 by the county of Cleveland. In 1996, Cleveland was abolished, and Middlesbrough Borough Council became a unitary authority. Its boundaries are somewhat larger than they were previously. In 1968 my house was in the North Riding County Council now it is in Middlesbrough Borough Council. The main drawback for me is when I need to take stuff to the household recycling centre I now have to make a 10 mile trip to Haverton Hill through heavy traffic instead of the 6 mile trip to Stokesley which takes about 10 minutes .

[trickstat]

As a further complication, in England there are now County or, in some cases 'County' Councils that are actually unitary. I say 'County' as some of them exclude certain parts that are separately unitary either as the modern equivalent of County Boroughs or because they were previously part of a 'county' that was founded in 1974. In England, I think these are Cornwall, Dorset (less Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole), Isle of Wight, Wiltshire (less Swindon), Rutland, Shropshire (less Telford & Wrekin), Durham (less parts of the former Cleveland and Tyne & Wear), Northumberland (less the remainder of Tyne & Wear) and, arguably, East Riding of Yorkshire (less Hull).

Hull was made a County Borough independent of the East Riding of Yorkshire from 1888. For a period (1972 to 1996) it was a non-metropolitan district of the County of Humberside until that council was abolished and it is now a unitary authority which to all intents and purposes means it has reverted to its previous state although I suspect there have been some boundary changes.

Pretty much the same thing happened to Middlesbrough which became a a county borough within the North Riding of Yorkshire between in 1889 and 1968, when it was merged with a number of others to form the County Borough of Teesside, which in turn was was absorbed in 1974 by the county of Cleveland. In 1996, Cleveland was abolished, and Middlesbrough Borough Council became a unitary authority. Its boundaries are somewhat larger than they were previously. In 1968 my house was in the North Riding County Council now it is in Middlesbrough Borough Council. The main drawback for me is when I need to take stuff to the household recycling centre I now have to make a 10 mile trip to Haverton Hill through heavy traffic instead of the 6 mile trip to Stokesley which takes about 10 minutes .

That's annoying because in Hertfordshire* I have never been asked where I am from.

*To be fair I've only ever used the sites in Letchworth & Stevenage. Maybe they do at sites on the edge of the county?

Anyway perhaps we should get back to predicting which county might be next to get some motorway. Suffolk? Lincs? Dorset?

[TS]

Correct me if i’m wrong but I believe a very short stretch of the A303 Zeals bypass passes into Dorset, therefore this stretch of road would probably stand the biggest chance of receiving blue line status in the county, even if it is only within it for a mile or so. ....

Not only is it only for a mile or so, but it is not possible to join the A303 in Dorset. The junction at Leigh Common, with the B3081, is just in Somerset and the Lower Zeals junction is in Wiltshire. There are no entry/exit slips in between.

So if this did become a motorway, would Dorset become the only county to contain a motorway but where you had to leave the county to access it?

[Glenn A]

In England, Northumberland, in the sense that which is Northumberland County Council, has no motorways and most likely never will due to the sparse population. The road network in the south east of the county is quite advanced, with several sections of D2, due to the built up nature of this part of the county, and the A69 is totally D2 until the west of Hexham, but there isn't the population numbers and volume of traffic, even on the A1, to build a D3M in the rest of the county.

[crb11]

That's annoying because in Hertfordshire* I have never been asked where I am from.

*To be fair I've only ever used the sites in Letchworth & Stevenage. Maybe they do at sites on the edge of the county?

I went to the Royston one a couple of times while helping clear my wife's old house out, and wasn't asked. (Hertfordshire recycling but I live in Cambridgeshire.) The third load went home with me and then to the Milton (Cambs) tip the following day because I misread the Royston centre closing time.

[Glenn A]

I live in an artificial county, Cumbria, and for a time, Tyne and Wear. Both have motorways, and the old counties of Cumberland and Westmorland have the M6 running through, with a small part of the M6 passing through the far north part of Lancashire that formed Cumbria. Tyne and Wear has the A167(M), A 194(M) and the start of the A1(M).

[jgharston]

As a further complication, in England there are now County or, in some cases 'County' Councils that are actually unitary. I say 'County' as some of them exclude certain parts that are separately unitary either as the modern equivalent of County Boroughs or because they were previously part of a 'county' that was founded in 1974. In England, I think these are Cornwall, Dorset (less Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole), Isle of Wight, Wiltshire (less Swindon), Rutland, Shropshire (less Telford & Wrekin), Durham (less parts of the former Cleveland and Tyne & Wear), Northumberland (less the remainder of Tyne & Wear) and, arguably, East Riding of Yorkshire (less Hull).

Even more confusing, Rutland is a unitary district council, which named itself a county council.

[KeithW]

That's annoying because in Hertfordshire* I have never been asked where I am from.

*To be fair I've only ever used the sites in Letchworth & Stevenage. Maybe they do at sites on the edge of the county?

Anyway perhaps we should get back to predicting which county might be next to get some motorway. Suffolk? Lincs? Dorset?

The Stokesley waste centre is the only one in North Yorkshire to apply this rule and its because the town of Stokesley has a population of 5000 and the waste centre was being swamped by the much larger demand from the ever expanding developments just outside its boundaries in Middlesbrough. This is partly because Middlesbrough combined with Stockton to close all the smaller centres and have one massive one for both boroughs.

[roadtester]

I agree the Newmarket bypass can be quite heavily loaded at times, but I’ve rarely seen it properly jammed.

If we consider the A11 and A14 corridors as a whole, I wouldn’t put it at the top of the list of upgrades for either.

On the A11, I would put upgrading the at-grade roundabouts - especially, as Keith mentions, Fiveways - as a higher priority, and on the A14, I would choose the at-grade junctions to the west of the A1.

If I were nevertheless upgrading the Newmarket bypass, I would initially prioritise improving the junctions - especially that with the A142 - over widening.

It’s not that the Newmarket bypass wouldn’t benefit from widening, or that it might one day no longer be possible to put it off - It’s just that I don’t think it’s the highest priority for the time being.

I was approaching Fiveways on the A11 earlier this (Sunday) evening at about 6.15 pm from the Norwich direction.

Crawled the last three-plus miles to the roundabout in a jam. No incident. Just weight of traffic.

This really does need to be GSJed.

[Scratchwood]

So my place of birth has been part of four different council areas in the space of less than half a century.

1888 - 1974: Hampshire
1974 - 1997: Dorset
1997 - 2019: Bournemouth Borough Council
2019: BCP council.

As I was born a year after Bournemouth became a unitary authority in its own right, I have always been under the impression that my home county is Dorset, seeing as I would have gone by ceremonial counties at the time (Saying i’m from the county of Bournemouth makes no sense for geographical reasons). Since discovering this site however, I have been surprised to learn that I was actually born and bred in Hampshire, not Dorset as I first thought. Well that’s if everyone goes by historical counties of course!

I can certainly remember watching Hampshire play cricket at Dean Park Cricket Ground well into the 1980s, a significantly time after the boundaries had changed.

Cricket (along with other generally amateur sports) is something of a throwback as regards Counties. Lancashire are based at Old Trafford in Trafford in what was Greater Manchester, Warwickshire at Edgbaston in Birmingham in the former West Midlands, Gloucestershire at Bristol that was in Avon and is now considered a county in its own right, Surrey at the Oval which I don't think has politically been in Surrey since the 19th century while Lords is the base for Middlesex that hasn't existed politically for a number of decades.

Going a bit off topic but Middlesex's outgrounds are interesting too. Apart from Uxbridge (which was in Middlesex) they also play at Radlett which is in Hertfordshire and most interestingly Richmond which used to be in Surrey!

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Cricket (along with other generally amateur sports) is something of a throwback as regards Counties. Lancashire are based at Old Trafford in Trafford in what was Greater Manchester, Warwickshire at Edgbaston in Birmingham in the former West Midlands, Gloucestershire at Bristol that was in Avon and is now considered a county in its own right, Surrey at the Oval which I don't think has politically been in Surrey since the 19th century while Lords is the base for Middlesex that hasn't existed politically for a number of decades.

Going a bit off topic but Middlesex's outgrounds are interesting too. Apart from Uxbridge (which was in Middlesex) they also play at Radlett which is in Hertfordshire and most interestingly Richmond which used to be in Surrey!

This summer, several counties had to play home matches away from their headquarters while the Cricket World Cup was in progress. Hampshire played one home game at Newport on the Isle of Wight, while Lancashire played a four day Championship match at Sedbergh School in Cumbria. Sedbergh is of course in the historic West Riding of Yorkshire.

I remember reading that Middlesex County Cricket Club may play some home matches in Barnet (formerly in Hertfordshire) in future as Lord's will be used more frequently for international matches and for the new Hundred competition.

[Chris Bertram]

Cricket (along with other generally amateur sports) is something of a throwback as regards Counties. Lancashire are based at Old Trafford in Trafford in what was Greater Manchester, Warwickshire at Edgbaston in Birmingham in the former West Midlands, Gloucestershire at Bristol that was in Avon and is now considered a county in its own right, Surrey at the Oval which I don't think has politically been in Surrey since the 19th century while Lords is the base for Middlesex that hasn't existed politically for a number of decades.

Going a bit off topic but Middlesex's outgrounds are interesting too. Apart from Uxbridge (which was in Middlesex) they also play at Radlett which is in Hertfordshire and most interestingly Richmond which used to be in Surrey!

This summer, several counties had to play home matches away from their headquarters while the Cricket World Cup was in progress. Hampshire played one home game at Newport on the Isle of Wight, while Lancashire played a four day Championship match at Sedbergh School in Cumbria. Sedbergh is of course in the historic West Riding of Yorkshire.

I remember reading that Middlesex County Cricket Club may play some home matches in Barnet (formerly in Hertfordshire) in future as Lord's will be used more frequently for international matches and for the new Hundred competition.

Go back far enough and you find Somerset playing at least some Sunday League games in Torquay, in Devon. Worcestershire used to visit Dudley in its old detached part, until mining subsidence opened up a huge hole in Dudley CC's pitch, ending the existence of that club as well as terminating the county visits.

Yorkshire used regularly to play games at Bramall Lane in Sheffield, which was part of the old West Riding, but when that was closed off to them moved their Sheffield games to Abbeydale, which although part of Sheffield since the 1930's, had historically been in Derbyshire (and Steven would probably insist still is), and which had previously hosted games for that county. These days, with the reduced number of county championship matches, the only outground that Yorkshire visit for first-class matches is the fine ground at Scarborough, firmly within the old North Riding, a far cry from the days when they would also visit Harrogate, Bradford and Middlesbrough, and stage one-day games in Huddersfield and Hull.

With no first-class team of their own, Staffordshire folk often support Derbyshire, and they have played at Burton-on-Trent, Leek and Biddulph at various times. Northants have visited Peterborough, Bletchley, Tring, Milton Keynes, Luton and Bedford, and Leicestershire have graced Oakham and Uppingham in Rutland with their presence (unsurprising as Rutland has no county team at all).

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Go back far enough and you find Somerset playing at least some Sunday League games in Torquay, in Devon. Worcestershire used to visit Dudley in its old detached part, until mining subsidence opened up a huge hole in Dudley CC's pitch, ending the existence of that club as well as terminating the county visits.

Yorkshire used regularly to play games at Bramall Lane in Sheffield, which was part of the old West Riding, but when that was closed off to them moved their Sheffield games to Abbeydale, which although part of Sheffield since the 1930's, had historically been in Derbyshire (and Steven would probably insist still is), and which had previously hosted games for that county. These days, with the reduced number of county championship matches, the only outground that Yorkshire visit for first-class matches is the fine ground at Scarborough, firmly within the old North Riding, a far cry from the days when they would also visit Harrogate, Bradford and Middlesbrough, and stage one-day games in Huddersfield and Hull.

With no first-class team of their own, Staffordshire folk often support Derbyshire, and they have played at Burton-on-Trent, Leek and Biddulph at various times. Northants have visited Peterborough, Bletchley, Tring, Milton Keynes, Luton and Bedford, and Leicestershire have graced Oakham and Uppingham in Rutland with their presence (unsurprising as Rutland has no county team at all).

Glamorgan County Cricket Club always play one home Championship game each season at Rhos-on-Sea CC (which the BBC and the press describe as Colwyn Bay), a minimum of 187 miles from the club's headquarters in Cardiff:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Sophi ... !3e0?hl=en

[danfw194]

The people of Rutland are getting their knickers in a twist about McDonalds potentially opening a restaurant there, could you imagine the furore if their A1 stretch was upgraded to motorway. Lovely county, strange people.