Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Chris56000
Member
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 21:16
Location: Walsall Wood, WALSALL, West Midlands

Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Chris56000 »

Hi!

To my knowledge, if R–to–P had been implemented in it's entirety, then Lincolnshire would have been one of the UK's motorway–less counties to lose that status(?) with the upgrading of the A1 to A1(M) – admittedly North Lincolnshire does have a short length of the M180 within it, it doesn't count as North Lincs came into being long after the M180 opened!

Are we ever likely to see any Motorway or A(M) Expresways with Motorway Regulations in force in any currently motorway–less counties, and which are the most likely?

Chris Wiliams
Jeni
Banned
Posts: 7313
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 22:28

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Jeni »

Chris56000 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 01:20 R–to–P
Go on then... Help us out on this one
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Berk »

Roads to Prosperity?? :)
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by roadtester »

East Anglia is a bit of a motorway desert, although Essex has a bit of M25 and Cambridgeshire has a bit of M11.

I think it's possible that Suffolk might get some blue line if A14 upgrading/expressway-isation continues beyond Cambridge towards Newmarket - Norfolk is less likely, I think, but upgrades to the A11 are probably its best chance in the long run.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Berk »

I’ve developed a feeling, and I stress this is a purely personal observation, based on what I’ve picked up from users and posts on here.

I think there is a genuine cultural divide between people who are regular motorway drivers, and those who are not. People who have access to motorways tend to use them frequently. This in turn influences their driving, and the route choices they may take.

Written a little larger, those people might only wish to travel to places which are motorway connected (unless circumstances dictate otherwise).

Consequently, those people may not understand what it’s like to live in an area or county with less, or even no motorway. Much like some counties used to be 30, 40 or 50 years ago.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Steven »

Chris56000 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 01:20 Lincolnshire would have been one of the UK's motorway–less counties
The M180 and M181 are in Lincolnshire.
CBRD Roads FAQ, 4.4.9 Which counties don't have a motorway? wrote:Aberdeenshire
Anglesey
Angus
Argyllshire
Banffshire
Berwickshire
Breconshire
Buteshire
Caernarfonshire
Caithness
Cardiganshire
Clackmannanshire
Cornwall
Cromartyshire
Denbighshire
Dorset
Dunbartonshire
East Lothian
East Sussex
Flintshire
Invernessshire
Isle of Wight
Kincardineshire
Kirkcudbrightshire
Merionethshire
Montgomeryshire
Morayshire
Nairnshire
Norfolk
Northumberland
Orkney
Peebleshire
Pembrokeshire
Radnorshire
Rossshire
Roxburghshire
Rutland
Selkirkshire
Shetland
Suffolk
Sutherland
Wigtownshire
A few of those have non-motorway Special Roads, like East Lothian, Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire.

Most of the rest are low population density areas, and/or areas (such as Merionethshire or Montgomeryshire) where the terrain just doesn't lend itself well. I'd say the highest possibilities would be in Dorset, though once you're west of Poole the density again drops dramatically, or maybe Norfolk/Suffolk, but Norwich and Ipswich simply aren't large enough in their own rights to be worth the extra expense needed, and there's not much additional population or relatively dense industry in those areas to help out with the benefits.

EDIT: Northumberland is actually incorrectly on the list, due to the A167(M).
Last edited by Steven on Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:23, edited 1 time in total.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Peter350 »

Correct me if i’m wrong but I believe a very short stretch of the A303 Zeals bypass passes into Dorset, therefore this stretch of road would probably stand the biggest chance of receiving blue line status in the county, even if it is only within it for a mile or so. The Puddletown bypass stands a good chance based on the quality of the road, but is isolated from the rest of the dual network so there may not much point in making it expressway. Anywhere east of Poole/Bournemouth would be much harder to upgrade due to the New Forest being in the way.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Steven »

Peter350 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 09:17 Correct me if i’m wrong but I believe a very short stretch of the A303 Zeals bypass passes into Dorset, therefore this stretch of road would probably stand the biggest chance of receiving blue line status in the county, even if it is only within it for a mile or so.
Yes, you're right - it does. And it is the most likely candidate.
Anywhere east of Poole/Bournemouth would be much harder to upgrade due to the New Forest being in the way.
And is in Hampshire anyway!! :D
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

Al__S
Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Al__S »

At least 4 of those (Berwickshire*, East Lothian, Northumberland and Rutland) would be ticked off if the A1 were to be upgraded to continuous A1(M) from the M25 to the A720
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by roadtester »

Steven wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 08:43 ...or maybe Norfolk/Suffolk, but Norwich and Ipswich simply aren't large enough in their own rights to be worth the extra expense needed, and there's not much additional population or relatively dense industry in those areas to help out with the benefits.
To add a bit to my previous post, I think if blue-lining/expresswaying takes hold, there would be quite a good chance of the Newmarket bypass going blue. It's a modern D3 but without a hard shoulder - i.e. broadly similar to the new Huntingdon/Cambridge section, which will be A14(M).

I'm not sure the probability is very great, but I think it's a far more likely prospect for blue lines than improving links to Norwich or Ipswich.

Also, East Anglia is one of the most buoyant parts of the country economically speaking, and has the fastest-growing population of any region outside London:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... /2016based

Cambridge is the main hotspot and I would say Newmarket is increasingly within its orbit.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19201
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by KeithW »

Steven wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 08:43

Most of the rest are low population density areas, and/or areas (such as Merionethshire or Montgomeryshire) where the terrain just doesn't lend itself well. I'd say the highest possibilities would be in Dorset, though once you're west of Poole the density again drops dramatically, or maybe Norfolk/Suffolk, but Norwich and Ipswich simply aren't large enough in their own rights to be worth the extra expense needed, and there's not much additional population or relatively dense industry in those areas to help out with the benefits.
While in general I agree there are some exceptions and I think Ipswich is one of them as is Cornwall. What I think has happened in some regions is is that existing roads such as the A11, A12, A14, A19 (north of Thirsk) , A30 and A38 west of Exeter were improved to a sufficiently high quality that a motorway would be hard to justify if for no other reason than that the provision of alternative routes for non motorway traffic would be high.

Population density is a factor but that can be overstated, consider County Durham (population 526,980 density 235/km2 and Cornwall (population 565,968 density 158/km2 then recall how much holiday traffic has to be catered for in the West Country.

As for Ipswich have we forgotten Felixstowe the A12 and A14 ? As a town it punches well above its weight having become a major centre of the Insurance and financial industries ( Axa, Churchill, Legal & General, LV and Willis). There is a reason why Greater Anglia runs train services from Ipswich to London Liverpool Street in the City of London. At present there is a major building boom in Ipswich and the rising population is putting increasing strain on its transport infrastructure. I suspect further upgrades of the A14 are inevitable particularly from Felixstowe to north of Ipswich, around Bury St Edmunds and the Newwmarket bypass to the new A14. This I suspect is the most likely candidate for becoming an extension of the A14(M)

Norwich has also seen a major change in its economic base with over 30% of its workforce working in the financial and business sectors and unemployment below 4%. East Anglia as a whole has had sustained growth for some time and is of course a major agricultural centre despite having been low on the list when it comes to infrastructure development. One of the major factors that affects road investment is politics and being in an area that contains a lot of marginal seats is always more likely to get government financed projects than safe seats, the classic example being the Humber Bridge.

Personally I could care less about what colour the road signs are, its the quality of the road and junctions that matter, in County Durham the A1(M) seems to be locked into the 1960's and starved of investment at the same time as the A19 has been upgraded out of all recognition since the 1970's. The section between the A174 and Wynyard including the Tees Flyover looks set to be widened.
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7517
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Big L »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:03 ...There is a reason why Greater Anglia runs train services from Ipswich to London Liverpool Street...
There is, but I suspect the presence of a few insurance companies in Ipswich is not it.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Peter350 »

Steven wrote: And is in Hampshire anyway!! :D
Well, the part east of Ashley Heath anyway. The A31 from there as far west as Wimborne could also do with an expressway upgrade given the current traffic levels, but that probably ain’t gonna happen with all the properties and side accesses in the way!
User avatar
Burwellian
Member
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 02:28
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Burwellian »

roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 09:46To add a bit to my previous post, I think if blue-lining/expresswaying takes hold, there would be quite a good chance of the Newmarket bypass going blue. It's a modern D3 but without a hard shoulder - i.e. broadly similar to the new Huntingdon/Cambridge section, which will be A14(M).
It also has the A1303/B1506 (A14) and A1304 (A11) as existing alternatives for potential non-motorway traffic.
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by roadtester »

Burwellian wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:21
roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 09:46To add a bit to my previous post, I think if blue-lining/expresswaying takes hold, there would be quite a good chance of the Newmarket bypass going blue. It's a modern D3 but without a hard shoulder - i.e. broadly similar to the new Huntingdon/Cambridge section, which will be A14(M).
It also has the A1303/B1506 (A14) and A1304 (A11) as existing alternatives for potential non-motorway traffic.
Ah yes - true.

BTW, if you don't mind me asking, are you from Burwell in those parts?
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Burwellian
Member
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 02:28
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Burwellian »

I was originally but moved away a bit over a decade ago. I'm now up near Stockport.
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by roadtester »

Burwellian wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:40 I was originally but moved away a bit over a decade ago. I'm now up near Stockport.
I thought your knowledge was quite detailed for someone who lived a long way away!
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19201
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by KeithW »

Burwellian wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:21
roadtester wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 09:46To add a bit to my previous post, I think if blue-lining/expresswaying takes hold, there would be quite a good chance of the Newmarket bypass going blue. It's a modern D3 but without a hard shoulder - i.e. broadly similar to the new Huntingdon/Cambridge section, which will be A14(M).
It also has the A1303/B1506 (A14) and A1304 (A11) as existing alternatives for potential non-motorway traffic.
Unfortunately it also has 7 miles of shared road with the A11 which means either an off line upgrade and a major GSJ or building a separate carriageway for the A11 and a major GSJ which would make it rather expensive. Personally I doubt anything much will happen until studies for the route and scope of the East West expressway are further advanced.
User avatar
Burwellian
Member
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 02:28
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Burwellian »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 13:11 Unfortunately it also has 7 miles of shared road with the A11 which means either an off line upgrade and a major GSJ or building a separate carriageway for the A11 and a major GSJ which would make it rather expensive. Personally I doubt anything much will happen until studies for the route and scope of the East West expressway are further advanced.
None of which is needed.

Legal orders, slap up some blue signs, done. The existing road is already to standard with non-motorway alternatives for the A11 in situ too.

EDIT: Oh, may need to check footpaths. Think Devil's Dyke already has a bridge though. Some gantries wouldn't hurt either as think the signage for Nine Mile Hill is still roadside...
User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: Motorway–less Counties Gaining Lengths of Motorway?

Post by Peter350 »

If you’re talking about the bit of A11 between the M11 and A14, that is already pretty much up to grade separated standard. It just needs an LAR to serve the properties en route and cater for prohibited traffic.
Post Reply