A22 between Caterham and Godstone

[FosseWay]

In the course of doing some family history, I discovered that a relative of mine was the sole survivor of a Lufthansa plane crash in the hills between Caterham and Godstone on 6 November 1929. The incident is written up on the Aviation Safety Network and includes this link (the PDF shown there is not downloadable).

Anyway, the impact made enough noise to attract people from around the area who tried to help, including "men engaged on the Caterham-Godstone road" (i.e. the A22). The way this is phrased suggests some concerted work on the road, and not just people who happened to be doing routine maintenance. The pin on this link shows roughly where I think the plane crashed. The section of the A22 to the east, which is the closest to the site, is as far as I can see still on its original alignment. Were there any significant upgrades to the road on its original alignment in 1929? There is a significant climb between Caterham and the area north of where the M25 junction now lies, so I was wondering whether widening or minor straightening might have been done then. Or am I just overinterpreting it, and the men in question were just filling a pothole?

[Raykay]

According to the report in your link, the accident was near View Point, which is a bit east of your marker, roughly under centre of the word 'Godstone' in Godstone Quarry. That part of the A22 is between hills on each side, so I expect it is the original route, but may have been when it was updated to dual carriageway and link with the Caterham Bypass.

[FosseWay]

Aha, thank you. I was having difficulty squaring the description with the details on the map.

As to dualling - I presumed the current DC from the Caterham bypass to the M25 is "recent" (i.e. built in the last 40-50 years) but haven't been able to find much. I was wondering whether the work on which the labourers in the link were engaged was to iron out minor kinks or perhaps widen the road to WS2 or S3.

[KeithW]

Aha, thank you. I was having difficulty squaring the description with the details on the map.

As to dualling - I presumed the current DC from the Caterham bypass to the M25 is "recent" (i.e. built in the last 40-50 years) but haven't been able to find much. I was wondering whether the work on which the labourers in the link were engaged was to iron out minor kinks or perhaps widen the road to WS2 or S3.

The account in the Flight International Archive for 1929 says this

Luft Hansa Disaster
A JUNKERS G.31, flying on the London-Berlin route,
crashed into the trees on a hill near Godstone on Wednesday,
November 6, and the crew of three and three passengers
were killed. Prince Eugen von Schaumburg-Lippe, the
second pilot, and Lieut-Commdr. Glen Kidston, R.N. (a
passenger), were badly burned but got clear ; the Prince,
however had a relapse and subsequently succumbed to his
injuries.
The Secretary of State for Air sent the following message
to the German Minister of Transport :—" Air Council have
heard with profound regret of accident near Caterham to
Luft Hansa air liner D.903, en route from Croydon to Amsterdam, and loss of life involved

There is also an article on Wikipedia about the subject. Note that the location included in the article seems spurious as it indicates Godstone not Gravelly Hill which seems to have been the location. This is the highest point in the area so is a very likely location for what is euphemistically called a controlled flight into terrain.

On 6 November 1929, the aircraft was operating a scheduled international passenger flight from Croydon to Amsterdam.[3] The aircraft departed at 09:54.[4] The weather at the time was poor. It was reported that the pilot may have been attempting to return to Croydon when the aircraft crashed into some trees at Marden Park, Godstone in thick fog.[3][5] The aircraft burst into flames; three of the crew and three of the four passengers were killed in the crash. Passenger Glen Kidston escaped from the wreckage on fire, and extinguished the flames himself by rolling in the grass, sustaining minor injuries. Second pilot Prince Eugen of Schaumburg-Lippe also escaped from the wreckage, but he was seriously injured. Kidston raised the alarm and reported the accident to Croydon Airport. He was treated at Caterham Cottage Hospital.

The survivor Glen Kidston seems to have raised the alarm and was by all accounts a motor racing driver and pioneer aviator,

In 1929 Kidston was travelling from Croydon to Amsterdam in a German airliner. 21 mins into the flight he sensed an imminent crash and assumed the safety position, likewise assisting his fellow traveller Prince Eugen von Schaumberg-Lippe. On impact, Kidston kicked out the fuselage whilst alight all over and doused himself in the wet grass. He re-entered the burning wreckage to save the badly burned Prince who subsequently died; the flames prevented him assisting others. Kidston fought through a mile of woodland at night to summon help. As he flagged a motorist down, his clothes were still smoking. He was then hospitalised with extensive burns. Kidston was the sole survivor. (Source: Canberra Times Friday 8 November 1929, p. 5).

The only change in the route of the road since that date seems to have been the Caterham Bypass but it could well nave been undergoing major work such as resurfacing. These were boom years for Tarmac Limited and they could hardly keep up with the demand for the product as sealed roads were increasingly popular. It is of course equally possible they were involved in something else entirely such as house building. This was a boom time for house building in SE England.

[FosseWay]

Thanks for the extra info on Glen Kidston He died in an air crash on 5 May 1931; in France according to the link I gave to the Aviation Safety Network database and in South Africa according to Burke's Peerage. The ASN itself has no record of an air crash on that date at all, whether in France, South Africa or anywhere else, so that remains a mystery for the time being.

The mention of tarmac leads to another question. Were all major roads tarmaced by this time, at least in the south-east? As you say, the tarmacing job nationwide was huge.

[KeithW]

Thanks for the extra info on Glen Kidston He died in an air crash on 5 May 1931; in France according to the link I gave to the Aviation Safety Network database and in South Africa according to Burke's Peerage. The ASN itself has no record of an air crash on that date at all, whether in France, South Africa or anywhere else, so that remains a mystery for the time being.

The mention of tarmac leads to another question. Were all major roads tarmaced by this time, at least in the south-east? As you say, the tarmacing job nationwide was huge.

Aviation was not exactly safe at that period, the Air Accident Investigations Branch was in existence at that time but any records they hold would be paper based. The accident in which he died reportedly happened in the Drakensberg Mountains South Africa, the best chance of finding any records would either be coroners records or the Flight International Archive.

As for road it would depend on where it was done, various meyhods were used at the time. In the NE tarmac would be used to seal existing Macadam roads but many new roads had concrete surfaces and there were other materials used. The Newport Bridge in Middlesbrough was originally surfaced with hardwood blocks and many streets and roads were cobbled.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/middlesbr ... otostream/

[Owain]

As to dualling - I presumed the current DC from the Caterham bypass to the M25 is "recent" (i.e. built in the last 40-50 years) but haven't been able to find much. I was wondering whether the work on which the labourers in the link were engaged was to iron out minor kinks or perhaps widen the road to WS2 or S3.

Having driven the A22 last year (as part of my F99 challenge!), I was struck by the 'antique' feel of almost all of it!

I would guess that the Caterham and Godstone bypasses were done in anticipation of the M25. Driving northbound on approach to Croydon, I recall a section that looked very old-fashioned and which might have been done well before the M25, but I doubt it would go quite as far back as your relative's air crash.

Most of the rest of the road seems barely touched from what the original must have been like, the only obvious exceptions being the Maresfield and Uckfield bypasses (including A26 multiplex), and the bizarre dualled rerouting into Eastbourne which forgets about the town itself and ends at an apparently random location in an industrial estate.

[You seem to have a whole catalogue of interesting ancestors and relatives!]

[FosseWay]

As to dualling - I presumed the current DC from the Caterham bypass to the M25 is "recent" (i.e. built in the last 40-50 years) but haven't been able to find much. I was wondering whether the work on which the labourers in the link were engaged was to iron out minor kinks or perhaps widen the road to WS2 or S3.

Having driven the A22 last year (as part of my F99 challenge!), I was struck by the 'antique' feel of almost all of it!

I would guess that the Caterham and Godstone bypasses were done in anticipation of the M25. Driving northbound on approach to Croydon, I recall a section that looked very old-fashioned and which might have been done well before the M25, but I doubt it would go quite as far back as your relative's air crash.

Most of the rest of the road seems barely touched from what the original must have been like, the only obvious exceptions being the Maresfield and Uckfield bypasses (including A26 multiplex), and the bizarre dualled rerouting into Eastbourne which forgets about the town itself and ends at an apparently random location in an industrial estate.

[You seem to have a whole catalogue of interesting ancestors and relatives!]

I didn't imagine the A22 was dualled as early as 1929, but wondered more whether there was a stage between a typical surfaced but not-much-improved S2 and the modern D2, such as S3.

The guy in the crash (Glen Kidston) isn't an ancestor but a (very distant) relative. When you get into the tens of thousands of known relatives, you end up with some (in)famous ones.

[Owain]

I didn't imagine the A22 was dualled as early as 1929, but wondered more whether there was a stage between a typical surfaced but not-much-improved S2 and the modern D2, such as S3.

The stretch that I am guessing would have been the route of the A22 in 1929 (pre-dualled section connecting to M25) now looks like this!

A bit further north of there is this layby, which I guess could have been S3 considering how narrow some of the old ones were by modern standards.

[FosseWay]

I didn't imagine the A22 was dualled as early as 1929, but wondered more whether there was a stage between a typical surfaced but not-much-improved S2 and the modern D2, such as S3.

The stretch that I am guessing would have been the route of the A22 in 1929 (pre-dualled section connecting to M25) now looks like this!

A bit further north of there is this layby, which I guess could have been S3 considering how narrow some of the old ones were by modern standards.

That stretch of the old Roman road was already bypassed by the A22 when my Popular Edition 1" was published (IIRC my original is the one on SABRE Maps). I'm not at home to check when my specific edition was published - it could be any time between 1919 and the late 1930s, which means that the A22 could have shifted from the Roman alignment to the current one during that map series' lifetime.

[WHBM]

I would guess that the Caterham and Godstone bypasses were done in anticipation of the M25. Driving northbound on approach to Croydon, I recall a section that looked very old-fashioned and which might have been done well before the M25, but I doubt it would go quite as far back as your relative's air crash.

Caterham bypass is I believe 1939. It used to be quite a drive on a derestricted downhill (notably) sinuous dual carriageway, but has been significantly striped down to one lane in recent times.

Godstone bypass post-dates the M25 by quite a bit; the motorway was early here, I think the bit through the M23 stack junction was mid 1970s, while the Godstone bypass was late 1980s - I can certainly remember having to go through the village.

The A22 here is actually an old Roman Road, but quite a bit of the alignment has been replaced, including most from Blindley Heath, halfway to East Grinstead, all the way up to north of Caterham. Look at a map and you will see unclassed roads and lanes following a straighter north-south course alongside. I believe the bit north of the M25 (which I think is where the air accident was) was done long before 1939, but was dualled more recently. When coming northbound I always like to turn onto the old road at Blindley Heath, straight to Godstone, a straight and quite wide unclass, but with a steep gable over the hilltop (FosseWay's map linked above shows the contours well) which is doubtless why it was rerouted to the east along existing but more level lanes. It's a pleasant quiet drive.

There was a huge amount of road work done in the 1920s-30s just adapting what was there previously to motor traffic, widening to S2 and installing sealed surfaces. I wonder where they got the money from.

[JosephA22]

I would guess that the Caterham and Godstone bypasses were done in anticipation of the M25. Driving northbound on approach to Croydon, I recall a section that looked very old-fashioned and which might have been done well before the M25, but I doubt it would go quite as far back as your relative's air crash.

Godstone bypass post-dates the M25 by quite a bit; the motorway was early here, I think the bit through the M23 stack junction was mid 1970s, while the Godstone bypass was late 1980s - I can certainly remember having to go through the village.

The southern S2 section was 1980s, but the northern D2 bit from the M25 to the A25 was earlier, probably when the M25 was opened through that junction, although I'm not 100% sure exactly when.

[WHBM]

The initial northern D2 bit of the Godstone bypass didn't serve the A22 at all - if you used it you then had to come back along the old A25 to the north end of the village and then go through it anyway. It didn't allow the A25 east-west to bypass either. Its sole purpose was to link the M25 and Caterham etc to the A25 eastbound.

[Brenley Corner]

The initial northern D2 bit of the Godstone bypass didn't serve the A22 at all - if you used it you then had to come back along the old A25 to the north end of the village and then go through it anyway. It didn't allow the A25 east-west to bypass either. Its sole purpose was to link the M25 and Caterham etc to the A25 eastbound.

Agreed. When the M25 first opened there in 1976 it ran between Reigate (J8) and Godstone (J6) and the M25 traffic (such as it was) was routed back down the link road (A22) to the eastbound A25. This link road which was built at the same time as the M25 routed the onward eastbound traffic away from the village; A22 southbound traffic still had to go through it.

The A22 south of the A25 came much later and is only S2.

A25 traffic still has no Bypass to this day, just a large one-way system in the centre of Godstone.

[Berk]

I had a quick look on Google (very quickly), and was confused. The hatched area appears to be heading downhill, or have I misunderstood that?? And it is northbound??

Unless you’re familiar with a road, it’s easy to get the wrong end of the stick as Google often loads the opposite carriageway to the one you thought you’d clicked on.

[KeithW]

I had a quick look on Google (very quickly), and was confused. The hatched area appears to be heading downhill, or have I misunderstood that?? And it is northbound??

Unless you’re familiar with a road, it’s easy to get the wrong end of the stick as Google often loads the opposite carriageway to the one you thought you’d clicked on.

Looking at the contour lines as you go south down the Caterham bypass the road first ascends to a point near Tillingdown Farm then follows contour line before descending to the M25. The easiest way to see it in Google maps is using the map view an turning the terrain option on.

[Berk]

That’s my default view (or with satellite)!! I’ve done that for some time, as it makes reading maps easier.

Unfortunately it still doesn’t follow that it’ll load the correct carriageway when you click on it.

[Raykay]

There is a hatched area downhill, southbound, at the southern end of the Caterham bypass where it meets the original road (Godstone Road). Southbound A22 is down to one lane, nearside, through the junction with no restriction, northbound A22 and Godstone Road are traffic light controlled. There is also a hatched area down to one lane northbound, a few hundred yards just past that junction to a few hundred yards from the roundabout at the northern end of the bypass, first uphill, then downhill.

[Bertiebus]

There is also an article on Wikipedia about the subject.

On 6 November 1929, the aircraft was operating a scheduled international passenger flight from Croydon to Amsterdam.[3] The aircraft departed at 09:54.[4] The weather at the time was poor. It was reported that the pilot may have been attempting to return to Croydon when the aircraft crashed into some trees at Marden Park, Godstone in thick fog.[3][5] The aircraft burst into flames; three of the crew and three of the four passengers were killed in the crash. Passenger Glen Kidston escaped from the wreckage on fire, and extinguished the flames himself by rolling in the grass, sustaining minor injuries. Second pilot Prince Eugen of Schaumburg-Lippe also escaped from the wreckage, but he was seriously injured. Kidston raised the alarm and reported the accident to Croydon Airport. He was treated at Caterham Cottage Hospital.

In 1929 Kidston was travelling from Croydon to Amsterdam in a German airliner. 21 mins into the flight he sensed an imminent crash and assumed the safety position, likewise assisting his fellow traveller Prince Eugen von Schaumberg-Lippe. On impact, Kidston kicked out the fuselage whilst alight all over and doused himself in the wet grass. He re-entered the burning wreckage to save the badly burned Prince who subsequently died; the flames prevented him assisting others. Kidston fought through a mile of woodland at night to summon help. As he flagged a motorist down, his clothes were still smoking. He was then hospitalised with extensive burns. Kidston was the sole survivor. (Source: Canberra Times Friday 8 November 1929, p. 5).

These inconsistencies do rather highlight how one has to take Wikipedia with a pinch of salt sometimes.

When the M25 first opened there in 1976 it ran between Reigate (J8) and Godstone (J6) and the M25 traffic (such as it was) was routed back down the link road (A22) to the eastbound A25. This link road which was built at the same time as the M25 routed the onward eastbound traffic away from the village; A22 southbound traffic still had to go through it.

A journey I vividly remember making twice as a youngster, while taking my Mum and sister to Heathrow Airport for a trip to see friends in Canada... an event so momentous (for a family in which nobody had previously travelled further than from Sussex to Yorkshire), that Dad drove and other sister and I went along in our shiny new P reg, two-door Mk2 Escort Popular to drop them off... and collect them a month later as well!

I vividly remember the section of the M25 being A Very New And Exciting Thing and, also, at J8 seeing Sham 69 graffiti sprayed on one of the bridges. On me asking what it meant, the more rebellious of my two older sisters declared it was a sexual position. For this she was soundly told off and I, of course, was absolutely none the wiser

Funny how these things stick with you...

[Stevie D]

I had a quick look on Google (very quickly), and was confused. The hatched area appears to be heading downhill, or have I misunderstood that?? And it is northbound??

The narrower and twistier section is the Caterham by-pass, and that has a (50) limit in both directions. The section between the M25 and the start of the Caterham by-pass is wider, straighter and more open, and is NSL.

Heading south, the road is two lanes all the way from the Wapses Lodge roundabout at the start of the Caterham by-pass through to the M25, apart from a short section where it is hatched down to one lane in order to allow an offside lane-gain from Caterham. Most of the way through the twisty section of the Caterham by-pass, it is uphill, making it less likely that vehicles will pick up too much speed.

Heading north, the road narrows from D2 to D1 shortly after the exit into Caterham (where there is traffic-light control for traffic exiting Caterham and crossing the northbound carriageway), and remains D1 until a short distance before the roundabout where it widens up to D2 again. Because it is downhill through the twisty bit, there was a problem with drivers picking up speed without realising it ... and then if you're trying to get round the bends while going too fast and you can't accelerate to get more traction because you're already going too fast and it's downhill so your car is tail-happy anyway ... you can see why it had a bad track record.