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Glenn A wrote: ↑Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:02
D2 was probably considered sufficient for most of the A74 upgrade in the 1960s, same as the upgrade to the A1 around the same time. Also at grade junctions, farm tracks, bus stops and access to houses near the D2 weren't considered such a big issue then, but later became serious hazards as vehicles became faster and traffic volumes increased.
I don't remember the A74 as it was before the motorway, so I'm curious as to how it shapes up in quality when compared to the A1? I'm thinking of them being similar to the sections in North Yorkshire that were built around the same time, but upgraded recently... or the horrible bit between Redhouse and Darrington. The 60's designed A1 does seem to feel a bit wider, but I've only driven the old road in a couple of places (like alongside Cairn Lodge services for example) and it felt very narrow.
The A1 route follows very benign geography so low level and many straight stretches while the A74 had many curves and climbed over 1,000' at Beattock.
And even the low quality standard bits of the A1 had narrow hard shoulders in places - the section up to Scotch Corner in particular had them, whereas the A74 didn't even have hard strips until they were added later.
Ironically the highest quality section of the A74 was the Cumberland Gap. Which is partly why it lasted as long as it did, which was still too long.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Hello, I’m aware this is a long time after you last posted, but are you referring here to the section of A82 between the Erskine Bridge and the Dumbarton roundabout? It has always puzzled me that this is a 70 zone; it is far too narrow, the corner is far too tight, and there is a short, under-engineered at-grade junction with a local road. I’d make it a 50.
Yes, exactly that bit. I drove it in 2010 going to Bute the long way, and in 2014 going to Iona (again the long way), and the 2014 trip was the hairy one with a lorry on the narrow lanes.
And it’s particularly odd because it’s at most a mile of 70 with a 50 section on the Glasgow side and the 40 section through Dumbarton on the other. It’s not necessary, let alone safe!
Always think of the tourists in the hire cars or camper vans facing that bit of the A82 as one of their first bits of the Scottish road network after landing at Glasgow.
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ravenbluemoon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 23:40
I don't remember the A74 as it was before the motorway, so I'm curious as to how it shapes up in quality when compared to the A1? I'm thinking of them being similar to the sections in North Yorkshire that were built around the same time, but upgraded recently... or the horrible bit between Redhouse and Darrington. The 60's designed A1 does seem to feel a bit wider, but I've only driven the old road in a couple of places (like alongside Cairn Lodge services for example) and it felt very narrow.
The A1 route follows very benign geography so low level and many straight stretches while the A74 had many curves and climbed over 1,000' at Beattock.
And even the low quality standard bits of the A1 had narrow hard shoulders in places - the section up to Scotch Corner in particular had them, whereas the A74 didn't even have hard strips until they were added later.
Ironically the highest quality section of the A74 was the Cumberland Gap. Which is partly why it lasted as long as it did, which was still too long.
The Cumberland Gap had also been the last section of A74 to be dualled, not finally completed until 1973 - so despite the long overdue completion of the M6 in 2008, some of the "old" dual carriageway was only 35 years old.
I remember the Cumberland Gap section before it was upgraded to motorway. Was most of the original dual carriageway to the north of Gretna of an inferior standard to that section, or did it vary which section (the section to the south of Lesmahagow definitely was though).
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54
I remember the Cumberland Gap section before it was upgraded to motorway. Was most of the original dual carriageway to the north of Gretna of an inferior standard to that section, or did it vary which section (the section to the south of Lesmahagow definitely was though).
Originally yes, the hard strips were added later as part of a safety scheme in the late 70s/early 80s.
The Cumberland Gap had hard shoulders at the southern end which narrowed to 1m strips further towards Metal Bridge.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54
I remember the Cumberland Gap section before it was upgraded to motorway. Was most of the original dual carriageway to the north of Gretna of an inferior standard to that section, or did it vary which section (the section to the south of Lesmahagow definitely was though).
The original dual carriageway quality varied, probably down to when it was built - the narrow lanes around Lesmahagow were very noticeable compared to the wider sections further south.
It's quite difficult to visualise the original road on the de-dualled offline (to the motorway) sections today because many stretches of the old road have been quite extensively relandscaped, and I'm quite certain that there are sections where the neighbouring fields have been expanded part-way out to where the former carriageway used to be.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54
I remember the Cumberland Gap section before it was upgraded to motorway. Was most of the original dual carriageway to the north of Gretna of an inferior standard to that section, or did it vary which section (the section to the south of Lesmahagow definitely was though).
The original dual carriageway quality varied, probably down to when it was built - the narrow lanes around Lesmahagow were very noticeable compared to the wider sections further south.
Lesmahagow Bypass was of course built before WW2 so had the worst mistakes of 1930s road design limping through, the screamingly narrow bridge for example where the central reservation is barely two kerbs back to back.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54
I remember the Cumberland Gap section before it was upgraded to motorway. Was most of the original dual carriageway to the north of Gretna of an inferior standard to that section, or did it vary which section (the section to the south of Lesmahagow definitely was though).
The original dual carriageway quality varied, probably down to when it was built - the narrow lanes around Lesmahagow were very noticeable compared to the wider sections further south.
Lesmahagow Bypass was of course built before WW2 so had the worst mistakes of 1930s road design limping through, the screamingly narrow bridge for example where the central reservation is barely two kerbs back to back.
There is also the issue of these roads were built, like roads like the Belgian N4, for vehicles smaller, less powerful and fewer in number than those using the road today.
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RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:44
It's quite difficult to visualise the original road on the de-dualled offline (to the motorway) sections today because many stretches of the old road have been quite extensively relandscaped, and I'm quite certain that there are sections where the neighbouring fields have been expanded part-way out to where the former carriageway used to be.
AFAIK there just two sections of the original left - around Lesmahagow and at Red Moss Inn (north of Abington) although there are several sections where one carriageway has been reduced to a cycle track
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:44
It's quite difficult to visualise the original road on the de-dualled offline (to the motorway) sections today because many stretches of the old road have been quite extensively relandscaped, and I'm quite certain that there are sections where the neighbouring fields have been expanded part-way out to where the former carriageway used to be.
AFAIK there just two sections of the original left - around Lesmahagow and at Red Moss Inn (north of Abington) although there are several sections where one carriageway has been reduced to a cycle track
The southbound entry slip at J11 is also the original northbound A74 - the service road alongside is very obviously the original southbound as it still has a very rusty barrier along it that looks way older than the 1980s motorway infrastructure next to it.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:44
It's quite difficult to visualise the original road on the de-dualled offline (to the motorway) sections today because many stretches of the old road have been quite extensively relandscaped, and I'm quite certain that there are sections where the neighbouring fields have been expanded part-way out to where the former carriageway used to be.
AFAIK there just two sections of the original left - around Lesmahagow and at Red Moss Inn (north of Abington) although there are several sections where one carriageway has been reduced to a cycle track
The southbound entry slip at J11 is also the original northbound A74 - the service road alongside is very obviously the original southbound as it still has a very rusty barrier along it that looks way older than the 1980s motorway infrastructure next to it.
Yep, I'd noticed that as well. I believe that there used to be an at-grade junction where the present day J11 is. It's kind of weird how they chose to build the motorway on an entirely different line to the 1960s road between Uddington and Abington when the motorway doesn't bypass anything that the old road didn't, other than a pub.
Here's how the former A74 looked in the 1990s shortly after being singled:
AFAIK there just two sections of the original left - around Lesmahagow and at Red Moss Inn (north of Abington) although there are several sections where one carriageway has been reduced to a cycle track
The southbound entry slip at J11 is also the original northbound A74 - the service road alongside is very obviously the original southbound as it still has a very rusty barrier along it that looks way older than the 1980s motorway infrastructure next to it.
Yep, I'd noticed that as well. I believe that there used to be an at-grade junction where the present day J11 is. It's kind of weird how they chose to build the motorway on an entirely different line to the 1960s road between Uddington and Abington.
Yes, the original A70 junction was a staggered crossroads and it was a bit of a death trap.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 18:31It's kind of weird how they chose to build the motorway on an entirely different line to the 1960s road between Uddington and Abington when the motorway doesn't bypass anything that the old road didn't, other than a pub.
It must have been decided that an entirely new motorway was required to replace the old road, and not an online upgrade. One reason might have been that the existing road was not a suitable alignment for a motorway. Once that decision has been made, if the cost in land and engineering is favourable, you can build your new motorway anywhere you like - there's no reason to build it right alongside or on top of the existing road if there's a better line elsewhere that works out to be the same cost or cheaper.
Looking at that section, the old A74 certainly had some corners that would have needed realigning. The new route looks to have fewer curves and is possibly slightly shorter too.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 18:31It's kind of weird how they chose to build the motorway on an entirely different line to the 1960s road between Uddington and Abington when the motorway doesn't bypass anything that the old road didn't, other than a pub.
It must have been decided that an entirely new motorway was required to replace the old road, and not an online upgrade. One reason might have been that the existing road was not a suitable alignment for a motorway. Once that decision has been made, if the cost in land and engineering is favourable, you can build your new motorway anywhere you like - there's no reason to build it right alongside or on top of the existing road if there's a better line elsewhere that works out to be the same cost or cheaper.
Looking at that section, the old A74 certainly had some corners that would have needed realigning. The new route looks to have fewer curves and is possibly slightly shorter too.
The old road took quite a sharp 90% turn just north of Abington, and there are only a couple of motorways I can think of with a curve as tight as that, one being the M90. I suspect the route of the 1960s road would have been the more affordable route to build, hence why they probably chose not to build an offline upgrade along this section when the road was originally dualled.
It's also interesting that the section in question remained dualled for years after the M74 was built there - it was only singled when the A74 to the south was upgraded as a means to continue the NCN74 route.
You could still make out the shape of the emergency contraflow crossovers even ten years ago but it looks to have all overgrown now.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
One of my grandads has a map from the 1990s showing the old road just north of Abington as still being dualled while coexisting with the M74. The road had definitely been singled along this stretch by 2002 when the gallery on CBRD (Now roads.org.uk) was taken, though.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 08:47
One of my grandads has a map from the 1990s showing the old road just north of Abington as still being dualled while coexisting with the M74. The road had definitely been singled along this stretch by 2002 when the gallery on CBRD (Now roads.org.uk) was taken, though
I can't date it but I can remember using the dual carriageway to access Happendon services after the M74 had opened.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 08:47
One of my grandads has a map from the 1990s showing the old road just north of Abington as still being dualled while coexisting with the M74. The road had definitely been singled along this stretch by 2002 when the gallery on CBRD (Now roads.org.uk) was taken, though
I can't date it but I can remember using the dual carriageway to access Happendon services after the M74 had opened.
That bit still remains to this day - albeit marked down to a single lane.
The bit between J11-12 was singled around 1999 when the A74(M) was finished.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
AndyB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 13:16
There is a point on the Great Western Road (A82) on the way out of Glasgow where it's a bit tight for an HGV and a car.
Hello, I’m aware this is a long time after you last posted, but are you referring here to the section of A82 between the Erskine Bridge and the Dumbarton roundabout? It has always puzzled me that this is a 70 zone; it is far too narrow, the corner is far too tight, and there is a short, under-engineered at-grade junction with a local road. I’d make it a 50.
Nearly caught me out last Thursday when I was driving to Ben Nevis for the first time. After driving 400 miles on motorway, I came over the Erskine Bridge onto the A82, accelerated to 70 mph, and had a brown trouser moment as the corner is tighter than it looks
