Should roadside businesses off motorway junctions be signed in the same fashion as MSAs?

[KeithW]

What commercial businesses should be signed off a motorway anyway, other than ones that qualify for a brown sign? Sounds like the sort of thing you expect to find if you turn off and head for the nearest town anyway, you'd have pretty much the same things listed at every junction. They'd need to be scarcer than that to justify it IMO.

How many signs would you have to put up on the M1 near Nottingham, Leeds or Sheffield, the road would be lined with them.

[KeithW]

Given the ease of finding specific branded outlets using the internet, it's an intrusive backward step to put advertising along main roads - IMO the present MSA signs should revert to simply advertising fuel, food, WC, etc.

Indeed many Satnav systems have the ability to add points of interest files listing them and with Google Maps you can search for a 'supermarket near me'.

[murphaph]

Germany has requirements for such facilities which have to be met before they get a sign on the Autobahn. For example the facilities must be no more than 1km from the exit. These things are called Autohöfe (Singular Autohof) here. A full MSA is an Autobahnraststätte.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autohof

[Peter350]

Wow, some really interesting responses on here!

Reading through the feedback, it’s apparent the main reason MSAs are the way they are is due to legal obligations forced upon them. I’m not against the idea of this but it would be nice to have some cheaper alternatives in areas where there is demand. My idea is to have three different tiers of motorway service area as follows:

Service area
Place for vehicles to stop off the motorway with existing MSA regulations - Must provide food, fuel, parking and toilets 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Rest area
Scaled down version of a service area with the only legal requirements being toilets and parking for cars and HGVs. Food, fuel and lodging businesses may trade on site if they wish but are not legally obliged to do so 24/7. Approach signage must use the old style symbols with no branding.

Local services
A cluster of local businesses within 0.25 miles of a motorway exit that provide food, fuel, parking and toilets. HGV parking and 24/7 opening is not compulsory, however this must be clearly stated on approach signs where applicable. These local services must not be shown on route planning maps while approach signage must use the old style symbols with no branding. In order to be signed from the motorway, they must be over 12 miles from the next nearest MSA, and have a maximum AADT of 25k at the access junction to prevent congestion on local roads. The bypassed services on the old A1 in North Yorkshire would be good candidates for this treatment.

[RichardA35]

Funnily enough you have described the current situation almost exactly once you are off the motorway. I think it is fine as it is - a balance between the different interests.

[KeithW]

Wow, some really interesting responses on here!

Reading through the feedback, it’s apparent the main reason MSAs are the way they are is due to legal obligations forced upon them. I’m not against the idea of this but it would be nice to have some cheaper alternatives in areas where there is demand. My idea is to have three different tiers of motorway service area as follows:

Service area
Place for vehicles to stop off the motorway with existing MSA regulations - Must provide food, fuel, parking and toilets 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Rest area
Scaled down version of a service area with the only legal requirements being toilets and parking for cars and HGVs. Food, fuel and lodging businesses may trade on site if they wish but are not legally obliged to do so 24/7. Approach signage must use the old style symbols with no branding.

Local services
A cluster of local businesses within 0.25 miles of a motorway exit that provide food, fuel, parking and toilets. HGV parking and 24/7 opening is not compulsory, however this must be clearly stated on approach signs where applicable. These local services must not be shown on route planning maps while approach signage must use the old style symbols with no branding. In order to be signed from the motorway, they must be over 12 miles from the next nearest MSA, and have a maximum AADT of 25k at the access junction to prevent congestion on local roads. The bypassed services on the old A1 in North Yorkshire would be good candidates for this treatment.

The bypassed services off the old A1 are hardly local services. They were purpose built to make money from passing traffic and are not owned by any single entity. Take Markham Moor where you have two filling stations, a McDonalds, a closed Little Chef site, the old Markham Moor Inn, a Chinese restaurant ,Truckstop, Travelodge and a fried chicken outlet. It is in fact almost a typical US interstate type area off a junction that would be signed Food, Gas and Lodging. All you need to add are the large signs on top of 30ft poles and a Waffle House to make it a perfect facsimile.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@39.93688 ... !1e1?hl=en

A better example of real local services can be found in Boroughbridge where just off the Motorway you have a large supermarket as well as the town centre businesses. This is what the old signs on the A1 meant when they said 'Local Services not 24 Hours'

Personally I think the Rest Area concept has more legs especially those that follow the pattern of the EuroGarages sites along the A30 and A38. Ideally on Trunk roads we should follow the Interstate concept and require the highways authorities to provide basic rest areas with a toilet block and free parking at a max interval of 30-50 miles just to encourage drivers to take a rest break. Some states allow drivers to take an overnight break but many under pressure from commercial truckstop and lodging operators, have a 2 or 3 hour limit. The French have a similar system with their 'Aires de repos'

[Johnathan404]

Service area
Place for vehicles to stop off the motorway with existing MSA regulations - Must provide food, fuel, parking and toilets 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Rest area
Scaled down version of a service area with the only legal requirements being toilets and parking for cars and HGVs. Food, fuel and lodging businesses may trade on site if they wish but are not legally obliged to do so 24/7. Approach signage must use the old style symbols with no branding.

Local services
A cluster of local businesses within 0.25 miles of a motorway exit that provide food, fuel, parking and toilets. HGV parking and 24/7 opening is not compulsory, however this must be clearly stated on approach signs where applicable. These local services must not be shown on route planning maps while approach signage must use the old style symbols with no branding. In order to be signed from the motorway, they must be over 12 miles from the next nearest MSA, and have a maximum AADT of 25k at the access junction to prevent congestion on local roads. The bypassed services on the old A1 in North Yorkshire would be good candidates for this treatment.

Your proposal is pretty much exactly the current situation, except that local facilities don't need to cater for lorries. Anywhere with ample HGV parking should be signed from the SRN anyway, as HGV parking is desperately needed.

Even with the limited signage local facilities currently have, it's a pain to work out what should be signposted and to keep it updated, and most motorists ignore the signs because they don't know how far it is, whether it's open, and whether there's a McDonald's or not.

I'm not sure McDonald’s need any more exposure than they currently get.

[Debaser]

Table B1 of the linked document below gives the current mandatory and permitted requirements for MSAs, motorway rest areas, all-purpose trunk road service areas and truckstops.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... c-road.pdf

[WHBM]

The issue with signed commercial premises is that it leads to continuing upsets among the local traders along the lines of "you signed x but not y - or me".

I recall the "Local Services" that were signed (apparently after a long campaign) back in the 1990s for the villages alongside the A74/M74. The facilities in the villages were absolutely useless - one café that closed at 4pm, fuel station that could not take an HGV and didn't open on Sundays, etc.

[Vierwielen]

I agree that signs on motorways should not be there to support businesses that are not on the motorway, however if those businesses attract so much traffic that people often get lost going to those businesses (eg theme parks, football grounds etc), then there is a good case to signpost them in order to ensure an orderly flow of traffic rather than to promote the business. This is, I believe, the rationale why crematoria are so widely signpoted.

[avtur]

.... This is, I believe, the rationale why crematoria are so widely signpoted....

People are just dying to get in (sorry couldn't resist)

[KeithW]

I agree that signs on motorways should not be there to support businesses that are not on the motorway, however if those businesses attract so much traffic that people often get lost going to those businesses (eg theme parks, football grounds etc), then there is a good case to signpost them in order to ensure an orderly flow of traffic rather than to promote the business. This is, I believe, the rationale why crematoria are so widely signpoted.

In which case signpost them from the bottom of the slip road with generic signs such as Local Services, Fuel and Food rather than heading down the greasy slope of advertising hoardings. Crematoria are not usually present in large numbers, fast food outlets are. This type of signage has already been put up at Boroughbridge.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.08177 ... 6656?hl=en

and

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.08258 ... 6656?hl=en

[Helvellyn]

I agree that signs on motorways should not be there to support businesses that are not on the motorway, however if those businesses attract so much traffic that people often get lost going to those businesses (eg theme parks, football grounds etc), then there is a good case to signpost them in order to ensure an orderly flow of traffic rather than to promote the business. This is, I believe, the rationale why crematoria are so widely signpoted.

Those mostly sound like the sorts of places that meet the criteria for a brown sign (or patch).

[roadtester]

I don't think it's a bad idea in principle - I just think it's been overtaken by the near-universal adoption of sat nav and the availability of apps/sites like petrolprices.com.

Most people can easily access the relevant information without the need for a lot of extra signage.

[roadtester]

Germany has requirements for such facilities which have to be met before they get a sign on the Autobahn. For example the facilities must be no more than 1km from the exit. These things are called Autohöfe (Singular Autohof) here. A full MSA is an Autobahnraststätte.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autohof

While an Autohof is a different creature to a full MSA, it's still a much more "organised" set-up than what the OP seems to have in mind. More like our notion of a truck-stop (although not limited to trucks).

[lefthandedspanner]

On major roads in the more isolated parts of Scotland (e.g. A9, A75, A82), nearby towns and villages have 'local services' signposts in lieu of an actual service area, with the nature of the services detailed in pictograms. I reckon it'd be sensible to adopt a similar sysem in England.

[KeithW]

On major roads in the more isolated parts of Scotland (e.g. A9, A75, A82), nearby towns and villages have 'local services' signposts in lieu of an actual service area, with the nature of the services detailed in pictograms. I reckon it'd be sensible to adopt a similar sysem in England.

The same is true of AP roads in England such as the A1 usually with the caveat 'Not 24 Hours'. Boroughbridge and Catterick had just such signs before the upgrade to motorway standard.

[c2R]

On major roads in the more isolated parts of Scotland (e.g. A9, A75, A82), nearby towns and villages have 'local services' signposts in lieu of an actual service area, with the nature of the services detailed in pictograms. I reckon it'd be sensible to adopt a similar sysem in England.

And who here hasn't been short on fuel, tired, or hungry and made the error of believing these signs, only to find none of the above, or nothing open past 5, or everything long closed down!