A10 Broxbourne Clean Air Zone

[Fluid Dynamics]

Isn't the reality that repeatedly local and national Government have done nothing about this section of the A10 before it reaches the M25, and that the M25 junction built is insufficient for the traffic its handles. The A10 north of here is built to D2 standard with space in the central reservation for an extra lane whilst the section immediately north of the M25 is a residential urban dual carriage way with at grade junctions. Wouldn't one solution be to levy the charge and use the revenue to do something about the situation like junction improvements and cut and cover tunnelling? Plus provide better facilities for cyclists and pedestrians?

[Berk]

Yes, it’s all very well to accept he air quality is too bad and levy fines charges. But what do you do with the money then??

I think it goes into the black hole of DWP annually managed expenditure The Consolidated Fund.

That isn’t good enough. The charges must go towards providing infrastructure and projects that will eliminate the problem. Rather than just topping up the local hospital budget.

[c2R]

Isn't the reality that repeatedly local and national Government have done nothing about this section of the A10 before it reaches the M25, and that the M25 junction built is insufficient for the traffic its handles. The A10 north of here is built to D2 standard with space in the central reservation for an extra lane whilst the section immediately north of the M25 is a residential urban dual carriage way with at grade junctions. Wouldn't one solution be to levy the charge and use the revenue to do something about the situation like junction improvements and cut and cover tunnelling? Plus provide better facilities for cyclists and pedestrians?

So... The original Dual carriageway ended at the New River Arms in Broxbourne. This was constructed as one of the London Radials, and was widened I think in the 60s to dual carriageway. this had, and still has houses along the length.

In the late 70s/early 80s, the Section between Broxbourne and Moles Farm at Ware opened as rural dual carraigeway.

The M25 was then constructed and of course, traffic levels in the area meant that the section between the New River Arms and the M25 became very congested. Government then bought all the houses along the section in order to demolish them to conduct road widening and junction improevements.

This was then abandoned, and the houses sold back. Finally, the road was detrunked, and now we are where we are....

[John McAdam]

Yes, it’s all very well to accept he air quality is too bad and levy fines charges. But what do you do with the money then??

I think it goes into the black hole of DWP annually managed expenditure The Consolidated Fund.

That isn’t good enough. The charges must go towards providing infrastructure and projects that will eliminate the problem. Rather than just topping up the local hospital budget.

You think wrong.

After covering the costs of running such a scheme, the Transport Act 2000 states that whatever is left over goes towards "facilitating the achievement of local transport policies".

[trickstat]

Isn't the reality that repeatedly local and national Government have done nothing about this section of the A10 before it reaches the M25, and that the M25 junction built is insufficient for the traffic its handles. The A10 north of here is built to D2 standard with space in the central reservation for an extra lane whilst the section immediately north of the M25 is a residential urban dual carriage way with at grade junctions. Wouldn't one solution be to levy the charge and use the revenue to do something about the situation like junction improvements and cut and cover tunnelling? Plus provide better facilities for cyclists and pedestrians?

So... The original Dual carriageway ended at the New River Arms in Broxbourne. This was constructed as one of the London Radials, and was widened I think in the 60s to dual carriageway. this had, and still has houses along the length.

In the late 70s/early 80s, the Section between Broxbourne and Moles Farm at Ware opened as rural dual carraigeway.

I grew up in Stevenage and, until I was about 7, one set of my grandparents lived in Ilford. I have faint memories of travelling through Hoddesdon (and possibly Broxbourne and Cheshunt?) on a single-carriageway A10 en route.

[Berk]

Yes, it’s all very well to accept he air quality is too bad and levy fines charges. But what do you do with the money then??

I think it goes into the black hole of DWP annually managed expenditure The Consolidated Fund.

That isn’t good enough. The charges must go towards providing infrastructure and projects that will eliminate the problem. Rather than just topping up the local hospital budget.

You think wrong.

After covering the costs of running such a scheme, the Transport Act 2000 states that whatever is left over goes towards "facilitating the achievement of local transport policies".

Alright, transport budget. But there are zero guarantees that the money will be spent effectively or wisely.

We need to shape charging policies and make sure they meet requirements based on local environmental and transport needs. Including improving air quality by providing alternative routes, and facilitating active travel.

In other words, the criteria against which projects funding can be used for need to be very tight. Many road or cycle schemes have been frozen or put on indefinite hold due to “no funds”.

It’s no good if useful funds had been wasted on traffic calming and camera partnerships. When you could have several miles of bypass or segregated cycle lanes. Or subsidised local buses to give a real alternative.

[trickstat]

Yes, it’s all very well to accept he air quality is too bad and levy fines charges. But what do you do with the money then??

I think it goes into the black hole of DWP annually managed expenditure The Consolidated Fund.

That isn’t good enough. The charges must go towards providing infrastructure and projects that will eliminate the problem. Rather than just topping up the local hospital budget.

You think wrong.

After covering the costs of running such a scheme, the Transport Act 2000 states that whatever is left over goes towards "facilitating the achievement of local transport policies".

Alright, transport budget. But there are zero guarantees that the money will be spent effectively or wisely.

We need to shape charging policies and make sure they meet requirements based on local environmental and transport needs. Including improving air quality by providing alternative routes, and facilitating active travel.

In other words, the criteria against which projects funding can be used for need to be very tight. Many road or cycle schemes have been frozen or put on indefinite hold due to “no funds”.

It’s no good if useful funds had been wasted on traffic calming and camera partnerships. When you could have several miles of bypass or segregated cycle lanes. Or subsidised local buses to give a real alternative.

And this is where things start to get messy. Herts still has 100% two-tier Local Government with a County Council and 10 districts/boroughs. This Clean Air Zone has been brought in by the Borough Council but roads and transport are the responsibility of Herts County Council. About 3 years ago to save money, the CC cut their bus subsidy to the extent that there are no services after about 7:30 at night and the only services that run on Sundays are those that have hospitals on their routes. So good luck with expecting improved bus services.

[WHBM]

Yes, it’s all very well to accept he air quality is too bad and levy fines charges. But what do you do with the money then??

It goes to the additional revenue of the local authority, and is used to prop up their self-appointed gold-plated pension schemes that nobody in the real world could afford.

If it were stated by the DfT that all revenue from such schemes would be taken into central government coffers you wouldn't be able to see the councillors proposing this "environmental measure" for dust ...

[c2R]

It goes to the additional revenue of the local authority, and is used to prop up their self-appointed gold-plated pension schemes that nobody in the real world could afford.

Have you got any evidence that the pension scheme that is used isn't solvent without contribution from council tax payers?

[Berk]

That’s beside the point (even if it were true). Environmental charges (whether paid for by drivers, motorcycle riders, cyclists, whoever) should be spent on transport and environmental schemes.

Not frittered away on providing additional humps and pinch pints on local housing estates. Or cameras on NSL roads.

[unrepentantfool]

Isn't the reality that repeatedly local and national Government have done nothing about this section of the A10 before it reaches the M25, and that the M25 junction built is insufficient for the traffic its handles. The A10 north of here is built to D2 standard with space in the central reservation for an extra lane whilst the section immediately north of the M25 is a residential urban dual carriage way with at grade junctions. Wouldn't one solution be to levy the charge and use the revenue to do something about the situation like junction improvements and cut and cover tunnelling? Plus provide better facilities for cyclists and pedestrians?

So... The original Dual carriageway ended at the New River Arms in Broxbourne. This was constructed as one of the London Radials, and was widened I think in the 60s to dual carriageway. this had, and still has houses along the length.

In the late 70s/early 80s, the Section between Broxbourne and Moles Farm at Ware opened as rural dual carraigeway.

The M25 was then constructed and of course, traffic levels in the area meant that the section between the New River Arms and the M25 became very congested. Government then bought all the houses along the section in order to demolish them to conduct road widening and junction improevements.

This was then abandoned, and the houses sold back. Finally, the road was detrunked, and now we are where we are....

How far is the section between the M25 and the New River Arms? How much would it cost to cut and cover tunnel a grade-separated dual carriageway for that section linking with the newer HQDC north of that point.

[c2R]

How far is the section between the M25 and the New River Arms? How much would it cost to cut and cover tunnel a grade-separated dual carriageway for that section linking with the newer HQDC north of that point.

There's about 1.75 km lined by housing, which takes in at-grade junctions with Church Lane and College Lane. There's then a further 3.5km of rural D2 which has space for junction improvements (there is a s/b LILO with Theobalds Lane, a roundabout with Lt. Ellis Way, and an at grade junction for access to a print works, and finally we come to the M25 J25).

The M25 roundabout is a current bottleneck, but there are plans by HE to improve capacity. Other improvements could then be made such as the closing of Theobalds Lane, and the replacing of the Lt Ellis Way roundabout with a large flat signalised junction, or a hamburger junction.

I'd guess a ballpark figure for tunneling the suburban section using cut and cover would be £100m.

[Scratchwood]

I’m very surprised to hear this:

Hertfordshire County Council and Broxbourne Borough Council had drawn up proposals including a toll to use the A10, lower speed limits and junction improvements but were told the measures would not make quick enough changes to air quality.

So basically they need to bring the changes in (almost) overnight?? The other problem is, once again they plan to make local residents exempt. Why not promote more active travel and public transport use instead??

Absolutely no justification for any pollution charge if you exempt local residents, indeed I think they should be outlawed, as otherwise they become a "beggar my neighbour" road toll. Everyone pays the London ULEZ, including when its extended to the North and South circulars, politicians are perfectly entitled to introduce such schemes, but should also face democratic accountability for it.

If such schemes are to be introduced, then maybe a national payment scheme needs to be implemented, to avoid having to visit 100 separate websites to make these payments. Register your car once, and have the payment automatically deducted and paid to the relevant authority.

[RickyB_uk]

However, it has to be said these charges are only being paid by motorists who own or drive older cars. And these cars are old. More than 12/13 years old. I don’t have a problem with people driving older cars per se, but they still don’t meet the latest emissions standards, and never will.

the BBC link suggests that Diesel cars that aren't Euro-6 will be charged, and petrol cars that aren't Euro-4. Whilst Euro-4 is 12/13 years old, Euro-6 is only 4 years old.

Expecting everyone to replace 5-year old cars is unreasonable (not to mention that most cars will never use their own value in fuel over their lifetimes - the environmental cost of manufacturing a car and then scrapping it is a very significant part of the total environmental cost of a car).

I've seen stats that nearly 1 in 5 of UK cars and vans are more than 13 years old, so that covers a significant fraction of the vehicles that would be caught in the new scheme.

[unrepentantfool]

How far is the section between the M25 and the New River Arms? How much would it cost to cut and cover tunnel a grade-separated dual carriageway for that section linking with the newer HQDC north of that point.

There's about 1.75 km lined by housing, which takes in at-grade junctions with Church Lane and College Lane. There's then a further 3.5km of rural D2 which has space for junction improvements (there is a s/b LILO with Theobalds Lane, a roundabout with Lt. Ellis Way, and an at grade junction for access to a print works, and finally we come to the M25 J25).

The M25 roundabout is a current bottleneck, but there are plans by HE to improve capacity. Other improvements could then be made such as the closing of Theobalds Lane, and the replacing of the Lt Ellis Way roundabout with a large flat signalised junction, or a hamburger junction.

I'd guess a ballpark figure for tunneling the suburban section using cut and cover would be £100m.

Thanks for the estimate. I guess it's a case of where the funding would come from. If HE would pay for the junction improvements, then that might improve flow in the short term. The tunnel under the current section of D2 fromb Lieutenant Ellis Way roundabout to Turnford interchange could allow the current D2 to be split into a redesigned reasonably high-speed S2 and two local access roads separated by a verge in the suburban section/keep the current D2 with inner lanes changed to bus/taxi/NMU lanes north of Lt Ellis Way/south of College Lane. I would add grade-separated slips to New International's factory and the Travelodge adjacent but change nothing else between the Lt Ellis Way roundabout and the M25. I would put the tunnel entrance in the middle of the approach to the Lt Ellis Roundabout,moving the roundabout slightly further north if needed, flaring the current D2 lanes around it and separating the local traffic from the through traffic.
It could be done as a national project on the basis that it would help provide a reasonably fast diversion route to Cambridgeshire,Western Essex and the rest of East Anglia if the M11 was closed,while keeping pollution away from a reasonably large section of urban area and speeding up the A10 for everyday journeys.

[c2R]

Nice ideas, but the A10 has been detrunked, and therefore it is unlikely to be considered for national funding for large scale improvements such as these. That said, Hertfordshire County Council have been known for some large scale infrastructure projects in the past, such as the Weston Hills Tunnel on the A505, which came in at £43m

[danfw194]

I'll reserve judgment until more details are given, at the moment it's quite ambiguous: "A Clean Air Zone in and around a 1.82km stretch of the A10 in Hertfordshire is being proposed as part of a bid to improve air quality."

If it was only applied to that short stretch of A10 and no other roads, it would backfire spectacularly. People would just take to the local roads to circumvent the tolled section, causing more jams and more pollution.

I take no issue with the principle of tolling/taxing high polluters, even though I have a feeling my own car probably doesn't reach Euro 6 standards. But I completely agree with others in this topic that there needs to be joined up thinking with schemes like this. At the moment, it looks like it could get a bit unruly.