Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
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Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
You’ll find it difficult to shift motorists from private cars to buses, services are expensive, infrequent and unreliable.
Most traffic entering and leaving the city is commuters coming in from the rest of the county.
From rural areas in particular the public transport provision is poor. Until the local authority can deal with that there won’t be the desired modal shift
Most traffic entering and leaving the city is commuters coming in from the rest of the county.
From rural areas in particular the public transport provision is poor. Until the local authority can deal with that there won’t be the desired modal shift
- RichardA35
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Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
That is a very generalised argument. It would be great if it could be related to the specifics of Chelmsford which have been aired upthread. TBH the points have little validity given the mature park and ride set up in the city and the numerous other bus services serving the county. Perhaps one thing that could be adjusted upwards to encourage bus usage is the cheap all day parking in the city centre approx £5.50 vs approx. £3.50 on the P & RMrEd wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 20:59 You’ll find it difficult to shift motorists from private cars to buses, services are expensive, infrequent and unreliable.
Most traffic entering and leaving the city is commuters coming in from the rest of the county.
From rural areas in particular the public transport provision is poor. Until the local authority can deal with that there won’t be the desired modal shift
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
Well I’ve lived in Chelmsford over 30 years, so my argument is about my own experiences of public transport here.
Also here’s a study the council published showing the commuter flows
http://consult.chelmsford.gov.uk/portal ... 3698695176
Also here’s a study the council published showing the commuter flows
http://consult.chelmsford.gov.uk/portal ... 3698695176
- Johnathan404
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Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
That's the excuse which everyone says about everywhere!
Chelmsford's public transport may be poor, but even if it were good, people would be making exactly the same excuse. You can see why authorities are more attracted to the 'stick' than the 'carrot'.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
Because it's factually correct pretty much everywhere. London is the only major exception.
After two decades of extremely low spending on new road infrastructure, and countless billions spent on public transport (in capital and subsidy) over the same period, the car still has an 86% modal share. And lest you think that's due to some uniquely anti-public/active transport attitude in the UK, it's pretty much the same as comparable countries like France, Germany or the Netherlands: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... ab-chart_1
If we really want to move that needle meaningfully we need to build towns and cities with active and public transport at their heart. Covering the countryside in low density, car dependent estates, then trying to engineer congestion to get people out of the cars they are dependent upon, is tilting at windmills. Yet this is the longstanding policy of almost every local authority in England, with predictable results.
Last edited by jackal on Sat Sep 21, 2019 01:05, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
You've forgotten Manchester and Birmingham as major exceptions
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
Maybe if you're going up and down a radial like Stockport Rd or Oxford Rd, Manchester. Try to make an orbital journey of any sort and things deteriorate rapidly. Only in London is public transport a fairly comprehensive alternative to the car.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
I use public transport almost exclusively. I've never had particular issues making orbital journeys by bus within Birmingham itself. (The trains only make radial journeys, though, and orbital journeys that leave Birmingham and enter other parts of the conurbation can also be difficult sometimes, e.g. Longbridge to Quinton is rather harder than it should be given the fairly short crow-flies distance.)
In fact, many bus interchanges have more orbitals than radials, e.g. Northfield has X20, 61, 63 as radials, and 18, 27, 48, 49 as orbitals (you need multiple orbitals because some of them spiral inwards or outwards to go "diagonally" across the polar co-ordinates). I've probably missed some, but it's more likely orbitals I'm missing than radials. (In fact, even most of the radials have orbital sections, e.g. the 63 is radial between the city centre and Rubery but then goes orbital for Frankley.)
In fact, many bus interchanges have more orbitals than radials, e.g. Northfield has X20, 61, 63 as radials, and 18, 27, 48, 49 as orbitals (you need multiple orbitals because some of them spiral inwards or outwards to go "diagonally" across the polar co-ordinates). I've probably missed some, but it's more likely orbitals I'm missing than radials. (In fact, even most of the radials have orbital sections, e.g. the 63 is radial between the city centre and Rubery but then goes orbital for Frankley.)
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
The problem is a lot of journeys under 3km are made in cars when other modes that don't require even an engine exist. How much of this is necessity and how much is just laziness because the car offers convenience is of course a subject of much debate.jackal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 00:35Because it's factually correct pretty much everywhere. London is the only major exception.
After two decades of extremely low spending on new road infrastructure, and countless billions spent on public transport (in capital and subsidy) over the same period, the car still has an 86% modal share. And lest you think that's due to some uniquely anti-public/active transport attitude in the UK, it's pretty much the same as comparable countries like France, Germany or the Netherlands: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... ab-chart_1
If we really want to move that needle meaningfully we need to build towns and cities with active and public transport at their heart. Covering the countryside in low density, car dependent estates, then trying to engineer congestion to get people out of the cars they are dependent upon, is tilting at windmills. Yet this is the longstanding policy of almost every local authority in England, with predictable results.
Bryn
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She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
I think raw speed can be a part of that too. People today have the impression that their lives are too crowded and busy to take the extra twenty minutes ish to walk to the shop to buy milk, or walk their kids to school before work. For some the argument is definitely true; if you have an inflexible employer or a stressful American-style workplace where they punitively cut staff and increase workload, I have some sympathy. Likewise if the kids have been put in a school in another town because of overdevelopment and underprovisioning, or your school is the other side of a really, really big hill like in Barry. However, I don't think parenting has changed enough since I was young to justify the fact that I now see Qashqai chaos outside schools in entirely walkable districts of Cardiff, every morning without fail, even in the sunny months.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
And compared to cycling, safety. There are academic studies showing that a shift from cars to cycling increases the rate of serious injury.
Doesn't apply to walking of course, and even modest changes to infrastructure could make a difference there IMO. Railings in the way of desire lines don't help matters, and making pedestrians wait for all arms of a signalised crossroads to clear before they can cross is just obnoxious.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
What if you’re travelling 15 or 20 k’s or more?? You need to drive into the city (or cross it) from wherever you live (or are going to). The city may not even be your final destination, but the roads system means you’re forced to go into it.
Your shift pattern may not coincide with the P&R’s opening hours either. Many P&R schemes knock off fairly early in the evening. The Cambridge system starts to shut down not long after 8.
Unless you can work on how to make modal shift attractive for people in rural areas, or shift workers (make P&R either 18/7 or 24/7), this is a zero-sum debate.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
When I have been a pedestrian, the number of railings close to major junctions, forcing you to walk dozens of yards beyond where you actually need to be going, are completely ridiculous.jackal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 15:24And compared to cycling, safety. There are academic studies showing that a shift from cars to cycling increases the rate of serious injury.
Doesn't apply to walking of course, and even modest changes to infrastructure could make a difference there IMO. Railings in the way of desire lines don't help matters, and making pedestrians wait for all arms of a signalised crossroads to clear before they can cross is just obnoxious.
Unless they’re there for security reasons, railings should be avoided.
Last edited by Berk on Sat Sep 21, 2019 17:43, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
I said under 3km so what's a journey exceeding 10 or 15 got to do with anything?Berk wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 16:14What if you’re travelling 15 or 20 k’s or more?? You need to drive into the city (or cross it) from wherever you live (or are going to). The city may not even be your final destination, but the roads system means you’re forced to go into it.
Your shift pattern may not coincide with the P&R’s opening hours either. Many P&R schemes knock off fairly early in the evening. The Cambridge system starts to shut down not long after 8.
Unless you can work on how to make modal shift attractive for people in rural areas, or shift workers (make P&R either 18/7 or 24/7), this is a zero-sum debate.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
Because there isn’t any recognition whatsoever of types of car users. It always assumed that “they are making short journeys of 5 k’s or less”. Or that they originate from the same urban area. Or that capacity restrictions should be applied unilaterally, without any regard for anyone else.
A good example would be someone travelling from the Rodings to Basildon. They would need to travel along the A1060 into town (which they can’t avoid, because guess what, there’s no northern/western bypass), past the flyover and on to the A1114 and on to the A130. It doesn’t matter whether they’re being green and getting a lift/car-share, using the bus or whatever.
Please explain why reducing capacity would help someone in that situation.
Unless some serious traffic surveying or censuses take place, I can’t see any deeper engagement. It’s as if transport planning teams had joined Extinction Rebellion overnight.
And even if you’re talking journeys half that distance, why not make the case for much extended P&R opening hours?? Or would that cost too much money??
A good example would be someone travelling from the Rodings to Basildon. They would need to travel along the A1060 into town (which they can’t avoid, because guess what, there’s no northern/western bypass), past the flyover and on to the A1114 and on to the A130. It doesn’t matter whether they’re being green and getting a lift/car-share, using the bus or whatever.
Please explain why reducing capacity would help someone in that situation.
Unless some serious traffic surveying or censuses take place, I can’t see any deeper engagement. It’s as if transport planning teams had joined Extinction Rebellion overnight.
And even if you’re talking journeys half that distance, why not make the case for much extended P&R opening hours?? Or would that cost too much money??
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
The safety of the driver, or the safety of everyone else around them? I'd rather be hit by a bike than a car.
- Johnathan404
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Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
Isn't it funny how as soon as reducing car use is mentioned, suddenly everyone needs to commute from Cardiff to Holyhead to take the kids to school? You see it in the comments of every news story about every town's traffic issue, "but what about ME?"
Public transport will never be the best option for every possible journey, we know that. That doesn't automatically mean that every single person needs to drive everywhere. Most people agree that the best option for society would be a balance between the two, but that will never be achieved if people moan about every single thing that doesn't benefit them.
The whole "what about that journey I had to make in 1972" argument is just dull.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
You wouldn’t be saying that straight afterwards. Nor would the lady who was fiddling around with her phone when she was hit crossing the road.
Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
My Dad spent 20 years commuting to Leicester every day; I spent 2 of those years travelling there myself (6 months car-sharing 3-4 days a week + 1 day on the train).
It only worked for me because I was city central based, whereas Dad needed to visit clients often.
Although I’m not averse to modal shift, it can’t be at the expense of reducing choices for people. You need a service that’s punctual, and runs very long hours, and doesn’t run “all other things being equal” (e.g. signal failures, strikes, excessive utility works/traffic management).
A high quality service would be one worth paying (and giving up the car) for.
It only worked for me because I was city central based, whereas Dad needed to visit clients often.
Although I’m not averse to modal shift, it can’t be at the expense of reducing choices for people. You need a service that’s punctual, and runs very long hours, and doesn’t run “all other things being equal” (e.g. signal failures, strikes, excessive utility works/traffic management).
A high quality service would be one worth paying (and giving up the car) for.
- Johnathan404
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Re: Army and Navy flyover, Chelmsford, "can never reopen"
I'm not so sure. It is undoubtedly true that people feel under pressure to do everything as quickly as possible - and there are all sorts of reasons for that - but I don't think there's much correlation with congestion. If there was, congestion would be entirely self-regulating, and it isn't really.
There are plenty of journeys which would be quicker by walking / cycling / public transport, but for various reasons people stubbornly refuse to do so. They'd rather sit in the queue and complain about the traffic. As a result, I don't think journey time is their primary concern.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham