Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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trickstat
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by trickstat »

doebag wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 06:52 Strange they use Gallows Corner as an example.
The thing must be well past it’s planned life by now, indeed it was closed this week for urgent repairs.
It would be interesting to know the predicted traffic flows (chaos) if they removed it now.
The flyover had the look of a temporary structure 40 years ago!
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by thatapanydude »

Runwell wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:41
doebag wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 06:52 Strange they use Gallows Corner as an example.
The thing must be well past it’s planned life by now, indeed it was closed this week for urgent repairs.
It would be interesting to know the predicted traffic flows (chaos) if they removed it now.

The Westway and Rotherhithe tunnel would be almost terminal if they were closed forever this weekend.
I noticed signage recently installed now banning any larger vehicles from the flyover, presumably for good?

Meanwhile, plans recently for revamping the Gallows Corner junction look dead, and a like-for-like replacement flyover (to modern standards) looks the only option being pursued. Whether even that goes ahead with this funding dispute remains to be seen.
Oh right, I have completely missed this news. My opinion is that TfL should ask the DfT to step in with further assistance for a proper GSJ. To replace a junction with the same one given that traffic over the last 40 odd years has increased significantly is disappointing. Yes - I get TfL are short of money but this job needs to be done properly for the next 50 years to ideally eliminate the queues significantly.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by thatapanydude »

Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 17:40 However, I don't think they should be replaced once they become unsound.

That means the start of the M4 would probably have to move to The Parkway at some point this century.
Would you suggest an alternative to these structures? Personally I don't think it would be acceptable to have the A40 funnelled through Notting Hill again, though it might still be the case as I think that any new structure would probably have to be tolled which will push traffic through Notting Hill to Park Lane.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by doebag »

Runwell wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:41
doebag wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 06:52 Strange they use Gallows Corner as an example.
The thing must be well past it’s planned life by now, indeed it was closed this week for urgent repairs.
It would be interesting to know the predicted traffic flows (chaos) if they removed it now.

The Westway and Rotherhithe tunnel would be almost terminal if they were closed forever this weekend.
I noticed signage recently installed now banning any larger vehicles from the flyover, presumably for good?

Meanwhile, plans recently for revamping the Gallows Corner junction look dead, and a like-for-like replacement flyover (to modern standards) looks the only option being pursued. Whether even that goes ahead with this funding dispute remains to be seen.
The junction is on the split of two major routes. I wonder if stopping up access to/from Straight Rd and Main Rd would improve things and allow removal of the Meccano set ? Main Rd traffic could acesss the A12 using the Petits Lane junction and Straight Rd by using Petits Lane or Gooshays Drive. It's a long time since I've been that way but it would leave the junction free for through traffic.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Herned »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 22:14
My opinion is that TfL should ask the DfT to step in with further assistance for a proper GSJ. To replace a junction with the same one given that traffic over the last 40 odd years has increased significantly is disappointing. Yes - I get TfL are short of money but this job needs to be done properly for the next 50 years to ideally eliminate the queues significantly.
TfL have barely got enough money to keep running services, and politics is a significant part of the reason why. DfT/government have let them get within hours of running out of cash twice, I don't imagine they would be falling over themselves to hand over money for any new investment
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by trickstat »

doebag wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:55
Runwell wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 21:41
doebag wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 06:52 Strange they use Gallows Corner as an example.
The thing must be well past it’s planned life by now, indeed it was closed this week for urgent repairs.
It would be interesting to know the predicted traffic flows (chaos) if they removed it now.

The Westway and Rotherhithe tunnel would be almost terminal if they were closed forever this weekend.
I noticed signage recently installed now banning any larger vehicles from the flyover, presumably for good?

Meanwhile, plans recently for revamping the Gallows Corner junction look dead, and a like-for-like replacement flyover (to modern standards) looks the only option being pursued. Whether even that goes ahead with this funding dispute remains to be seen.
The junction is on the split of two major routes. I wonder if stopping up access to/from Straight Rd and Main Rd would improve things and allow removal of the Meccano set ? Main Rd traffic could acesss the A12 using the Petits Lane junction and Straight Rd by using Petits Lane or Gooshays Drive. It's a long time since I've been that way but it would leave the junction free for through traffic.
Surely the improvement for through traffic from such a move would be outweighed by the massive detrimental impact this would have on local traffic? This would also increase traffic volumes accessing or leaving the A12 and A127 at other junctions.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by doebag »

trickstat wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 14:49
Surely the improvement for through traffic from such a move would be outweighed by the massive detrimental impact this would have on local traffic? This would also increase traffic volumes accessing or leaving the A12 and A127 at other junctions.
I agree, what I was trying to suggest is, if the Meccano has to be removed, then what would be the best way to reduce the resultant heavy congestion at the roundabout with minimum financial outlay.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by M4Simon »

Herned wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 14:38
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 22:14
My opinion is that TfL should ask the DfT to step in with further assistance for a proper GSJ. To replace a junction with the same one given that traffic over the last 40 odd years has increased significantly is disappointing. Yes - I get TfL are short of money but this job needs to be done properly for the next 50 years to ideally eliminate the queues significantly.
TfL have barely got enough money to keep running services, and politics is a significant part of the reason why. DfT/government have let them get within hours of running out of cash twice, I don't imagine they would be falling over themselves to hand over money for any new investment
The whole thing is political - it has everything to do with London now having a Labour mayor and the government being 'run' by the former Tory mayor of London. Boris has been quoted as saying that he left TfL in a good financial state and it is all Labour's fault (paraphrased). The short term bail outs are the worst possible way to enable TfL to manage their resources effectively. How can TfL deliver a sensible programme of investment over a sustained period of time if they only have a settlement covering the next three or six months. This is of the government's doing - they are (not unreasonably) demanding value for money, but are doing it in such a way that money is wasted because TfL cannot commit to longer term investment.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by thomas417 »

It's almost as if the government should take back major highways from TfL
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 14:14
KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 14:09The only downside was moving the junk from the spare bedroom to the garage and tip. This was made possible by high speed internet reaching most Cambridgeshire villages in 2010.
That's amazing. You took junk from your spare bedroom to the tip by high speed internet? :laugh:
Not exactly , I had to clear the junk from the spare bedroom to turn it into a home office :)
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Herned »

thomas417 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 16:05 It's almost as if the government should take back major highways from TfL
I imagine TfL would bite their hand off if that was offered. Which is why it won't be, unless perhaps London elects a mayor of the correct party
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Gareth Thomas »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 21:07
Truvelo wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:55
thatapanydude wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:27 I was watching a video on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
Plans for the Westway and unbuilt West Cross Route extension show the forward destinations far from London. Brighton and Portsmouth would also have featured on the signs.
As evidenced by the "Shepherds Bush, Brighton M41" signs.
It felt very odd seeing Brighton as a destination on a 4-zone road! :-D
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:35
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 21:07
Truvelo wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:55
Plans for the Westway and unbuilt West Cross Route extension show the forward destinations far from London. Brighton and Portsmouth would also have featured on the signs.
As evidenced by the "Shepherds Bush, Brighton M41" signs.
It felt very odd seeing Brighton as a destination on a 4-zone road! :-D
If all had gone to plan it would have been a destination on a 1-zone road :shock:
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by the cheesecake man »

M4Simon wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 15:35 The whole thing is political - it has everything to do with London now having a Labour mayor and the government being 'run' by the former Tory mayor of London. Boris has been quoted as saying that he left TfL in a good financial state and it is all Labour's fault (paraphrased). The short term bail outs are the worst possible way to enable TfL to manage their resources effectively. How can TfL deliver a sensible programme of investment over a sustained period of time if they only have a settlement covering the next three or six months. This is of the government's doing - they are (not unreasonably) demanding value for money, but are doing it in such a way that money is wasted because TfL cannot commit to longer term investment.
Mostly that but not entirely. When the pandemic hit National Rail and buses were immediately given blank cheques to run empty services. Local networks were not. While TfL have received widespread publicity others have also had to beg for much less generous bailouts. One important difference is that TfL has much wider responsibilities it can no longer afford including roads. If Sheffield Supertram or Tyne & Wear Metro collapsed there wouldn't be the same collateral damage as TfL going bust would cause.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 21:11
silverfoxcc wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 21:03 Ahh the NSL

I once drove from Euston Statiom A501/A40(M)/A40/M25/M3/A322 (must be the late 70s) late one Sat night in 40mins...
Won't have been late 70s. The M25 in those parts didn't open until 1985!
Put it down to old age!! my son was with me after taking him on a train journey so yes ,1985 onwards but the timing was correct!
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by jackal »

Herned wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 17:34
thomas417 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 16:05 It's almost as if the government should take back major highways from TfL
I imagine TfL would bite their hand off if that was offered.
I would not be so sure of that. National Highways have radically different priorities from TfL, and I doubt the mayor and his party would willingly have their transport agenda consigned to history. Consider how divisive something like grade separation of the North Circular would be.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

jackal wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 19:35
Herned wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 17:34
thomas417 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 16:05 It's almost as if the government should take back major highways from TfL
I imagine TfL would bite their hand off if that was offered.
I would not be so sure of that. National Highways have radically different priorities from TfL, and I doubt the mayor and his party would willingly have their transport agenda consigned to history. Consider how divisive something like grade separation of the North Circular would be.
Divisive but certainly effective.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by trickstat »

EpicChef wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 21:34
jackal wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 19:35
Herned wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 17:34

I imagine TfL would bite their hand off if that was offered.
I would not be so sure of that. National Highways have radically different priorities from TfL, and I doubt the mayor and his party would willingly have their transport agenda consigned to history. Consider how divisive something like grade separation of the North Circular would be.
Divisive but certainly effective.
Presumably it would mainly be divisive because it would make it slower to join it for a short distance whilst benefitting those travelling on it for some distance?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Phil »

trickstat wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 08:40
EpicChef wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 21:34
jackal wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 19:35
I would not be so sure of that. National Highways have radically different priorities from TfL, and I doubt the mayor and his party would willingly have their transport agenda consigned to history. Consider how divisive something like grade separation of the North Circular would be.
Divisive but certainly effective.
Presumably it would mainly be divisive because it would make it slower to join it for a short distance whilst benefitting those travelling on it for some distance?
Divisive because the majority of those living in London are opposed to roadbuilding and elect MPs / London assembly members with the same views.

Therefore if National Highways (i.e. the DfT) instigated a programme of urban roadbuilding it would very much be a case of it being 'imposed from outside' over the wishes of Londoners and totally ignoring the democratic systems put in place to give Londoners the right to decide what goes on in their city.

We saw this in the early 1990s where even at that stage, Londoners were generally anti-road building yet the DFfT were able to push through works on the north circular and the M11 link road because the number of MPs opposed was tiny compared could easily be sidestepped by all the non London MPs (many of whose constituents would benefit from better roads)

Devolution (in its broadest sense - not just as pertains to Scotland / Wales / NI) was all about giving power back to local administrations who are more reflective of local needs. Riding roughshod over that simply because you don't like what they are doing is only going to harden opinions and make things more difficult in future as trust breaks down.
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