Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

[Bryn666]

It's only a hundred metres of woodland but much like Oxleas Wood people are opposed to removing it for roads.

I do wonder if Camden Town station is rebuilt and the suggested splitting of the Northern Line in to two happens means it would facilitate building a tube link to Scratchwood and having a Park and Tube site would be more in keeping with London transport aspirations.

Maybe even an interchange with the Midland Main Line?

At least you'd have a worthwhile use of the name London Gateway then.

[c2R]

I just see the urban realm improvements and NMU provision that could be made at Mill Hill Circus, Hendon - it's a complete win-win no-brainer as far as I can see.

[Bryn666]

That would be the only way to sell it. The problem remains that the A41 still has to go through that way so you're still stuck with Apex Corner.

[c2R]

That would be the only way to sell it. The problem remains that the A41 still has to go through that way so you're still stuck with Apex Corner.

I think I'd model adding London-bound sliproads to J4 at the same time, to try and get as much traffic to shift onto the under-utilised M1 as possible. I'd probably re-route A1 traffic in virtually its entirity via the Stirling Corner link, and then reduce the existing A1 to D1+1 bus lane and include a green bridge to join back some of the open space and woodland on either side together. Apex Corner and Mill Hill Circus would then be able to be modified to improve them substantially.

As for Fiveways corner, massive imprvements could be made to the area by making Watford Way into some sort of D2 boulevard with trees and dedicated NMU infstrastructure, both to the north and south into Hendon.

It might even be possible to do something better at Brent Cross Interchange at the same time, as well as additional improvements at Staples Corner to declassify the A5 through Edgeware and West Hendon and again take priority away from cars in this corridor.

[Chris Bertram]

It's only a hundred metres of woodland but much like Oxleas Wood people are opposed to removing it for roads.

I do wonder if Camden Town station is rebuilt and the suggested splitting of the Northern Line in to two happens means it would facilitate building a tube link to Scratchwood and having a Park and Tube site would be more in keeping with London transport aspirations.

Maybe even an interchange with the Midland Main Line?

At least you'd have a worthwhile use of the name London Gateway then.

Revive the Northern Heights extension to Bushey Heath.

[Bryn666]

Did the Northern Heights scheme get near to the M1 at all though? That would be a huge plus for any extension.

[FleetlinePhil]

Did the Northern Heights scheme get near to the M1 at all though? That would be a huge plus for any extension.

Aldenham bus overhaul works, the site of which had originally been intended for the Northern Heights extension, was almost adjacent to the M1 I recall.

[Scratchwood]

Did the Northern Heights scheme get near to the M1 at all though? That would be a huge plus for any extension.

Aldenham bus overhaul works, the site of which had originally been intended for the Northern Heights extension, was almost adjacent to the M1 I recall.

And the terminus would have been next to this roundabout near Elstree on the A41

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6421977,-0.3198172,17z

The Northern Line wouldn't be able to cope with extra passengers anyway, and it would be a slow and unattractive route into town. The Midland Main Line passes right next to London Gateway services and the M1 though, that might have been a better park and ride option?

[KeithW]

Did the Northern Heights scheme get near to the M1 at all though? That would be a huge plus for any extension.

Aldenham bus overhaul works, the site of which had originally been intended for the Northern Heights extension, was almost adjacent to the M1 I recall.

And the terminus would have been next to this roundabout near Elstree on the A41

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6421977,-0.3198172,17z

The Northern Line wouldn't be able to cope with extra passengers anyway, and it would be a slow and unattractive route into town. The Midland Main Line passes right next to London Gateway services and the M1 though, that might have been a better park and ride option?

The problem being of course that it is now part of the Thameslink System and most of its capacity is already committed.

[Chris5156]

To bring us back to the Westway itself - I haven't seen mention of this on SABRE yet, but as a semi-regular user of the Westway, there are further signs that the structure is in a bad way.

About three months ago works appeared on the viaduct around a damaged bridge joint - the one in question is here. A 30mph limit was introduced to cover that specific joint, with about half a mile of 30mph limit in the run up to it, raising back up to 40mph just afterwards. Varioguard barriers and catseyes were used through the 30mph limit to artificially narrow all three lanes, presumably to encourage lower traffic speeds. Yellow signs pointed out the damaged joint, and indicated that work will begin in late 2020 to fix it.

However, as of about a week ago, the 30mph limit has been silently extended to cover the whole Westway. The permanent 40mph repeaters in the central reserve have been changed through the whole length of the road, beginning at the West Cross Route and continuing right through to the existing 30mph on the Marylebone Road. No reason is indicated for this. The work site hasn't been extended.

Anecdotally, the original short 30 was reasonably well respected; traffic was slowing down either at the start of the limit or around the bridge joint to about 35mph and then speeding up afterwards. Now, however, the 30 is universally ignored; the whole length - including the damaged joint - is now being travelled between 40 and 50mph by most traffic and compliance is virtually zero.

I don't know the reason for the new, lower limit, but I'd be willing to bet real money that there are further structural defects appearing that TfL do not have the means to fix. It is a genuine concern that structures like this, and the Hammersmith Flyover, and countless others around London, were having maintenance postponed almost indefinitely even before the lockdown. Now, of course, TfL is virtually bankrupt. I wonder when and how - and, maybe, if - these problems might be addressed.

[KeithW]

To bring us back to the Westway itself - I haven't seen mention of this on SABRE yet, but as a semi-regular user of the Westway, there are further signs that the structure is in a bad way.

About three months ago works appeared on the viaduct around a damaged bridge joint - the one in question is here. A 30mph limit was introduced to cover that specific joint, with about half a mile of 30mph limit in the run up to it, raising back up to 40mph just afterwards. Varioguard barriers and catseyes were used through the 30mph limit to artificially narrow all three lanes, presumably to encourage lower traffic speeds. Yellow signs pointed out the damaged joint, and indicated that work will begin in late 2020 to fix it.

However, as of about a week ago, the 30mph limit has been silently extended to cover the whole Westway. The permanent 40mph repeaters in the central reserve have been changed through the whole length of the road, beginning at the West Cross Route and continuing right through to the existing 30mph on the Marylebone Road. No reason is indicated for this. The work site hasn't been extended.

Anecdotally, the original short 30 was reasonably well respected; traffic was slowing down either at the start of the limit or around the bridge joint to about 35mph and then speeding up afterwards. Now, however, the 30 is universally ignored; the whole length - including the damaged joint - is now being travelled between 40 and 50mph by most traffic and compliance is virtually zero.

I don't know the reason for the new, lower limit, but I'd be willing to bet real money that there are further structural defects appearing that TfL do not have the means to fix. It is a genuine concern that structures like this, and the Hammersmith Flyover, and countless others around London, were having maintenance postponed almost indefinitely even before the lockdown. Now, of course, TfL is virtually bankrupt. I wonder when and how - and, maybe, if - these problems might be addressed.

Decisions on the fate of the Westway have been deferred several times since a survey in 2017/18 revealed serious defects. Work was deferred in 2018 and was supposed to start this spring.
see
https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/i ... 40-westway

[thatapanydude]

Anecdotally, the original short 30 was reasonably well respected; traffic was slowing down either at the start of the limit or around the bridge joint to about 35mph and then speeding up afterwards. Now, however, the 30 is universally ignored; the whole length - including the damaged joint - is now being travelled between 40 and 50mph by most traffic and compliance is virtually zero.

Blimey, I thought this part of the westway was monitored with average speed cameras? Is that still the case if cars are travelling 50mph with no tickets - does this lack of compliance spread itself across the whole of the A40? (I had given up using it since the cuts to 40mph)

My take is that the government MUST take over "trunk" roads from TfL to save them before its too late !!

[ManomayLR]

Anecdotally, the original short 30 was reasonably well respected; traffic was slowing down either at the start of the limit or around the bridge joint to about 35mph and then speeding up afterwards. Now, however, the 30 is universally ignored; the whole length - including the damaged joint - is now being travelled between 40 and 50mph by most traffic and compliance is virtually zero.

Blimey, I thought this part of the westway was monitored with average speed cameras? Is that still the case if cars are travelling 50mph with no tickets - does this lack of compliance spread itself across the whole of the A40? (I had given up using it since the cuts to 40mph)

My take is that the government MUST take over "trunk" roads from TfL to save them before its too late !!

Personally it should go back to A40M and HE should control it so they can fit lane control and VSL to change the limit if there’s problems

[WHBM]

There is a huge infrastructure of 1960s roads around the country, it seems only TfL who just let them sit there and fall into serious disrepair before they do any fixing.

Before we do the common "TfL get no money for roads now" story, let me explain. I don't have the actual figures to hand but it goes like this. TfL used to get £1bn from DfT per year to maintain the trunk network. However the Mayor had long had their eyes on about £4bn per year of commercial property rates, which went to central government. After a lot of discussion it was agreed that the Mayor could have this, but not the complete amount, and for accounting convenience the DfT £1bn was netted off, giving the Mayor a £3bn gain.

Immediately the Mayor continuously publicised that they no longer had the old road element, oh woe is them, while completely keeping quiet about the overall substantial gain from elsewhere. it seems the whole £4bn per year is readily squandered elsewhere (the Mayor is good at doing this) and nothing was sensibly allocated to prior commitments.

Just in case you feel this is politically biased, our first Mayor, Ken Livingstone, normally went to work and around London on the Underground. The second Mayor, Boris, political opposite, went round on a bicycle (which the police security detail found hard work to keep up with him !). The current Greenwash Mayor has just spent £40k+ on an armoured Range-Rover, plus chauffeur. All comes out of the extra £3bn I suppose. Just like the cycleway Tower to Hyde Park has cost £1bn. Looking at the works result I wonder, professionally, how they managed to sink that much.

Roll on DfT taking back the Red Routes.

[Glenn A]

This is all alternate history stuff but in a timeline where you have the Ringways you won't have TfL as we know it today.

Had the full plan been built some sections would be less than 30 years old.

In fact I can't see any point of divergence that allows the Ringways to be built in full. You're asking for a pretty wacky butterfly to have Londoners accept a plan more destructive than anything the Luftwaffe chucked at them.

I agree as well, this plan would have destroyed a large chunk of London and then there would probably be thousands of people n refusing to move until they received much more in compensation. The only scheme I would have favoured would have been uprgrading the North Circular to D3M in the seventies and building the East London extension earlier. Otherwise better public transport would have been a better alternative, especially as the population of London began to grow again in the eighties.

[Chris5156]

Blimey, I thought this part of the westway was monitored with average speed cameras? Is that still the case if cars are travelling 50mph with no tickets - does this lack of compliance spread itself across the whole of the A40?

It is, but when the road was 40mph their threshold was set above 50mph - at least I assume it was, because private hire drivers who seemingly used the Westway all day every day would usually cruise by at 50+. I would guess the cameras haven’t been reconfigured for the lower limit - yet.

Elsewhere on the A40 compliance is reasonably good, thanks to a mix of congestion and average speed cameras that are set with a threshold closer to the speed limit. The 40 from Wood Lane out to Northolt is reasonably well respected, except by locals who know the system and are joining or leaving at points where they won’t pass a camera.

[Chris5156]

Roll on DfT taking back the Red Routes.

I’ve been advocating this for years. The reasons are many, but for a start, TfL is fundamentally a public transport body and that is plainly not the right fit for the maintenance of London’s major roads.

[KeithW]

Personally it should go back to A40M and HE should control it so they can fit lane control and VSL to change the limit if there’s problems

The Westway is a poisoned chalice. I suspect HE would run a mile before taking it on. The reality is that its a noisy polluted crumbling eyesore, it would be far more useful and efficient as a public transport corridor. An ideal choice for modern London Tram system like these in Berlin perhaps.


Cars and super highways have their places, but they are not a good choice for megacities.

[KeithW]

Elsewhere on the A40 compliance is reasonably good, thanks to a mix of congestion and average speed cameras that are set with a threshold closer to the speed limit. The 40 from Wood Lane out to Northolt is reasonably well respected, except by locals who know the system and are joining or leaving at points where they won’t pass a camera.

Even in the 80's when all the cameras were Gatso's people largely stuck at or close to the limit.

[KeithW]

I’ve been advocating this for years. The reasons are many, but for a start, TfL is fundamentally a public transport body and that is plainly not the right fit for the maintenance of London’s major roads.

At the least they should separate the two. Most cities operate the transit systems alongside a highways authority which have separate budgets, leaders and responsibilities.

New York City has the MTA responsible for Transit Systems and the DOT which is responsible for Bridges, Roadways and Ferries.