Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Big L »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:54
Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:11 One we have electric cars in abundance how are they going to treat the ULEZ ? there will be no need for it for cars...
When I saw this my initial reaction was that the powers-that-be will find something else to keep the money rolling in. And then along came this...
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:29 Tyre rubber doesn't produce particulate matter then? And flooding cities with large vehicles clean or not is still not solving the congestion or road safety negatives of driving.
...and there we have it.

Quite how they will differentiate between the tyre and brakepad emissions of lorries v cars v motorbikes v cycles v anything else with wheels or brakes will be interesting to watch. But the money will keep rolling in.

If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
So what's your fix then? Hope the problem goes away?
I'd start with stopping the pretence that the ULEZ and Congestion Charge zones are much more than money making schemes.

Then, if people want an emissions zone that covers all emissions then be honest and introduce such a scheme.

Sadly, honesty doesn't run deep in politics.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
It wasn't. It was designed to deal with emissions from private ICE vehicles. But that doesn't mean that ICE vehicle emissions are the only source of harmful particulates in the air, it just means that tailpipe emissions are currently the main problem.
EpicChef wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:26 If we had to demolish the Westway we could make a really nice long boulevard for NMU traffic.

We’d have lots of space to work with.
Only if you managed to buy up and demolish all the buildings underneath it!

There's all sorts under the Westway because the land beneath it was handed over to the community as recompense for the road being built. There's a sports centre with a climbing wall and horse riding, an indoor shopping centre, a huge skate park and all sorts of other things. The elevated road is not very pleasant to be around, but it's better than all the same traffic coming through at street level where it would be a major obstacle dividing streets in two.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 22:42
Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
It wasn't. It was designed to deal with emissions from private ICE vehicles. But that doesn't mean that ICE vehicle emissions are the only source of harmful particulates in the air, it just means that tailpipe emissions are currently the main problem.
EpicChef wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:26 If we had to demolish the Westway we could make a really nice long boulevard for NMU traffic.

We’d have lots of space to work with.
Only if you managed to buy up and demolish all the buildings underneath it!

There's all sorts under the Westway because the land beneath it was handed over to the community as recompense for the road being built. There's a sports centre with a climbing wall and horse riding, an indoor shopping centre, a huge skate park and all sorts of other things. The elevated road is not very pleasant to be around, but it's better than all the same traffic coming through at street level where it would be a major obstacle dividing streets in two.
Perhaps the boulevard can be built on the viaduct, with lifts, stairways, and travelators.

Maybe just call it the Westwalk or some other variant.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by mikehindsonevans »

EpicChef wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 00:38
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 22:42
Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
It wasn't. It was designed to deal with emissions from private ICE vehicles. But that doesn't mean that ICE vehicle emissions are the only source of harmful particulates in the air, it just means that tailpipe emissions are currently the main problem.
EpicChef wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:26 If we had to demolish the Westway we could make a really nice long boulevard for NMU traffic.

We’d have lots of space to work with.
Only if you managed to buy up and demolish all the buildings underneath it!

There's all sorts under the Westway because the land beneath it was handed over to the community as recompense for the road being built. There's a sports centre with a climbing wall and horse riding, an indoor shopping centre, a huge skate park and all sorts of other things. The elevated road is not very pleasant to be around, but it's better than all the same traffic coming through at street level where it would be a major obstacle dividing streets in two.
Perhaps the boulevard can be built on the viaduct, with lifts, stairways, and travelators.

Maybe just call it the Westwalk or some other variant.
Just indulging this "flight of fancy" for a moment on a windswept Thursday morning. The New York Highline is a remediated railway route along Old railroad viaducts, with access for all. The "606" walking route in Chicago follows an old rail route and a similar community space was put in place after Boston (USA) completed its "Big Dig".

The Westway has been up for around 50 years. Unlike HS2 which is designed and built for a 120-year working life, how long should we expect the Westway concrete to stay up?

Perhaps the ground-level parkway has better merit - walking around the ground-level installations, of course.

Shame about the A40 traffic, though!
Last edited by mikehindsonevans on Fri Mar 12, 2021 00:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:32 Not what i was asking was it ?

ULEZ is purely ultra low emission zone, rubber from tyres isnt emissions is it ?
"Emissions" is a catch all term from things chucked into the atmosphere by vehicles, which includes brake dust and tyre rubber particulates. The ULEZ is a permanent scheme designed to tackle these, completely separate from the Clean Air Zones in other cities which have to be removed when air quality passes below a threshold.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra- ... tcmp=52221

the ULEZ refers to the emissions from the engine of the vehicle. it really is that simple. Yes there are other emissions but that is not covered by the ULEZ.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by JammyDodge »

My preference would be a tunnel between here, just east of Hanger Lane, and here, east of Edgware Road, where the current flyover starts. With a junction for the West Cross Route and another for exiting before Edgware Road.
This would of course be tolled.
Western avenue can then be converted into more of a boulevard, rather than a suburban arterial road. Of course, there would also be segregated cycle routes and bus lanes along stretches were appropriate. The Westway would also be converted, but as others have said, it will be harder due to buildings below it
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Phil »

JammyDodge wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 13:39 My preference would be a tunnel between here, just east of Hanger Lane, and here, east of Edgware Road, where the current flyover starts. With a junction for the West Cross Route and another for exiting before Edgware Road.
This would of course be tolled.
Which just dumps the problem further along!

The key problem with the Westway is what it feeds into - the Marylebone Road etc which is an at grade city street full of traffic lights that gets progressively worse as you head east.

There is zero point in building ANYTHING which (1) makes traffic arrive on the Marylebone road any quicker or (2) in larger volumes than now.

Tolling is not the Panacea you imagine it to be - to make a real reduction in traffic volumes then the tolls have to be punitive in nature, and that brings all sorts of problems with voters.

As such the most likely strategy is a progressive reduction in the Westways capacity thus performing the dual role of throttling the amount of traffic reach central London while also reducing the dynamic loads being experienced by the structure thus prolonging its life.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Phil »

Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 17:39
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:54
Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56
When I saw this my initial reaction was that the powers-that-be will find something else to keep the money rolling in. And then along came this...

...and there we have it.

Quite how they will differentiate between the tyre and brakepad emissions of lorries v cars v motorbikes v cycles v anything else with wheels or brakes will be interesting to watch. But the money will keep rolling in.

If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
So what's your fix then? Hope the problem goes away?
I'd start with stopping the pretence that the ULEZ and Congestion Charge zones are much more than money making schemes.
Technically thats because of how the schemes are run!

If you had to pay £200 per Day to drive within the congestion charge zone then I'd wager you would see a significant drop in traffic and thus the congestion charge would do the job of reducing congestion (true the monies received by Governmental bodies would also plummet - but that is immaterial if the objective is to reduce congestion).

As such the imposition of a sufficiently high congestion charge WILL reduce congestion.

Much the same is true as regards the ULEZ

The problem is that such high charges will result in lots of angry motorists who will not be afraid to punish the politicians when election time comes round while business interest will be busty saying how such charges will cause job losses , price hikes, etc.

Therefore politicians usually dilute the effectiveness of said charging regimes such that they do end up as money making schemes rather than instigators of modal shift as per the original intention.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Phil wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 23:09
JammyDodge wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 13:39 My preference would be a tunnel between here, just east of Hanger Lane, and here, east of Edgware Road, where the current flyover starts. With a junction for the West Cross Route and another for exiting before Edgware Road.
This would of course be tolled.
Tolling is not the Panacea you imagine it to be - to make a real reduction in traffic volumes then the tolls have to be punitive in nature, and that brings all sorts of problems with voters.
I was thinking it would be tolled to pay for it, rather than reduce traffic.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Glenn A »

Last time I was in London, I noticed how much quieter the A41 was compared to the era before the M40 extension. Going back to 1990, when I was travelling out of London on a coach, the A41/ Finchley Road was the principal route out of the capital to the West Midlands, the North West, Scotland, Yorkshire and the North East. It would be the rail equivalent of having most of the trains out of Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross using the same tracks. I suppose there was the alternative of the A1 for the North East, Humberside and eastern Scotland, but this still had long sections of ageing D2 and roundabouts to contend with.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by thatapanydude »

I was watching a video @3:14 on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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thatapanydude wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:27 I was watching a video on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
Plans for the Westway and unbuilt West Cross Route extension show the forward destinations far from London. Brighton and Portsmouth would also have featured on the signs.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Truvelo wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:55
thatapanydude wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:27 I was watching a video on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
Plans for the Westway and unbuilt West Cross Route extension show the forward destinations far from London. Brighton and Portsmouth would also have featured on the signs.
As evidenced by the "Shepherds Bush, Brighton M41" signs.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Here's an outbound gantry.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

re: ULEZ, you must have to run something pretty nasty not to meet its requirements - I was gobsmacked that my current car (2019, so pretty new, but also not exactly economical) meets the requirements for ULEZ.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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hoagy_ytfc wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 23:57 re: ULEZ, you must have to run something pretty nasty not to meet its requirements - I was gobsmacked that my current car (2019, so pretty new, but also not exactly economical) meets the requirements for ULEZ.
Researching further, the requirements are nowhere near as "ultra-low" as I had assumed. My car is petrol and apparently petrol cars since 2005 should meet the spec (Euro 4)
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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thatapanydude wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:27I was watching a video @3:14 on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
Brilliant find, thanks for sharing it!

I was surprised at how (relatively) shiny and new it looks, but then I'm falling into the trap of thinking 1990 was recent. Westway was only 20 years old at the time and another 30 years have passed since then :shock:

There are no RCS on the Westway now, but your screengrab almost certainly shows this gantry. It explains something I've wondered for a long time, which is why there's a gantry spanning the westbound carriageway there, and why the middle set of warning lamps are mounted lower than the others. It was for this sign.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 08:52
thatapanydude wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:27I was watching a video @3:14 on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
Brilliant find, thanks for sharing it!

I was surprised at how (relatively) shiny and new it looks, but then I'm falling into the trap of thinking 1990 was recent. Westway was only 20 years old at the time and another 30 years have passed since then :shock:

There are no RCS on the Westway now, but your screengrab almost certainly shows this gantry. It explains something I've wondered for a long time, which is why there's a gantry spanning the westbound carriageway there, and why the middle set of warning lamps are mounted lower than the others. It was for this sign.
In the late 1980s there had been a somewhat disruptive maintenance scheme to replace expansion joints judging by Thames News clippings that are scattered around YouTube; one in particular shows everything being diverted off at the M41 with inevitable queues. I wonder if they undertook general cleaning and repainting at the same time?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

Those warning lights are weird - a bit like the Motorwarns, but lane specific.

If it was still a motorway today, do you think they would have been replaced with AMIs or MS1 lane control signals?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 08:52
thatapanydude wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 20:27I was watching a video @3:14 on the much loved HST trains on the GWML and it shows a RCS on the A40(M) country bound with having Guildford as a destination along with Oxford. Very much a surprise.
Brilliant find, thanks for sharing it!

I was surprised at how (relatively) shiny and new it looks, but then I'm falling into the trap of thinking 1990 was recent. Westway was only 20 years old at the time and another 30 years have passed since then :shock:

There are no RCS on the Westway now, but your screengrab almost certainly shows this gantry. It explains something I've wondered for a long time, which is why there's a gantry spanning the westbound carriageway there, and why the middle set of warning lamps are mounted lower than the others. It was for this sign.
First time I took my bike to London on a train, I missed the return due to the roads around Paddington being a maze. As such, I decided to follow road signs for Oxford, and immediately ended up on the Westway :shock: I must have ridden past that gantry, but it was dark and I certainly had bigger fish to fry.

Naturally I took the next exit and ended up on the former M41 :laugh: I definitely didn't pass any prohibition signs.
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