Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Chris5156
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:36Naturally I took the next exit and ended up on the former M41 :laugh: I definitely didn't pass any prohibition signs.
There's a solitary "no cycles" sign at the start of the Edgware Road flyover, but nothing against pedestrians and no signs at all at the Gloucester Terrace sliproad. But then the whole road* is a bit of a mess these days.

* And/or whole TfL road network
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:42
solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:36Naturally I took the next exit and ended up on the former M41 :laugh: I definitely didn't pass any prohibition signs.
There's a solitary "no cycles" sign at the start of the Edgware Road flyover, but nothing against pedestrians and no signs at all at the Gloucester Terrace sliproad. But then the whole road* is a bit of a mess these days.

* And/or whole TfL road network
Yep, it was Gloucester terrace. I made sure to get a photo when I was at Royal Oak station a year later -
A00BF9AB-DF47-444F-BAF7-D7340828C98C.jpeg
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:42
solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:36Naturally I took the next exit and ended up on the former M41 :laugh: I definitely didn't pass any prohibition signs.
There's a solitary "no cycles" sign at the start of the Edgware Road flyover, but nothing against pedestrians and no signs at all at the Gloucester Terrace sliproad. But then the whole road* is a bit of a mess these days.

* And/or whole TfL road network
The backlit "NO" sign was vandalised in 2008 or so and removed. It had the word "Motorway" plated over. Luckily I got a photo of it:

Image
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

Just to tick off the other access points:

Joining eastbound from Wood Lane, no cycles, pedestrians or animals.

Joining eastbound from Western Avenue, a very different no cycles, pedestrians or animals in advance of the junction, but nothing at the junction itself.

Northbound from Westfield, the world's tiniest no cycles, pedestrians or animals, on the right hand side where you won't see it.

Southbound from Westfield, just no cycles.

Northbound from Holland Park Roundabout, no cycles, pedestrians or animals on both sides.

In conclusion:
- You must not walk, cycle or ride a horse on the northbound West Cross Route or eastbound Westway.
- You may walk or herd sheep on the westbound Westway and southbound West Cross Route.
- You may not cycle on the westbound Westway or southbound West Cross Route from Edgware Road to the Paddington on-slip, but you may cycle on the rest of the route, as long as you join at Gloucester Terrace.
- You may walk, cycle or race alpacas on the eastbound Westway if you join from the footpath from Bentworth Road, by which route you will pass no signs telling you otherwise.

All in all, a complete mess. (And let's not get started on the many signage failings of the new speed limits.)
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:15Northbound from Holland Park Roundabout, no cycles, pedestrians or animals on both sides.
But way back from the actual roundabout exit, so potentially too late ...
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:15 Just to tick off the other access points:

Joining eastbound from Wood Lane, no cycles, pedestrians or animals.

Joining eastbound from Western Avenue, a very different no cycles, pedestrians or animals in advance of the junction, but nothing at the junction itself.

Northbound from Westfield, the world's tiniest no cycles, pedestrians or animals, on the right hand side where you won't see it.

Southbound from Westfield, just no cycles.

Northbound from Holland Park Roundabout, no cycles, pedestrians or animals on both sides.

In conclusion:
- You must not walk, cycle or ride a horse on the northbound West Cross Route or eastbound Westway.
- You may walk or herd sheep on the westbound Westway and southbound West Cross Route.
- You may not cycle on the westbound Westway or southbound West Cross Route from Edgware Road to the Paddington on-slip, but you may cycle on the rest of the route, as long as you join at Gloucester Terrace.
- You may walk, cycle or race alpacas on the eastbound Westway if you join from the footpath from Bentworth Road, by which route you will pass no signs telling you otherwise.

All in all, a complete mess. (And let's not get started on the many signage failings of the new speed limits.)
If only there were people who understood signing requirements. IF ONLY. Alas and alack!
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:20If only there were people who understood signing requirements. IF ONLY. Alas and alack!
I'm pretty sure TfL used to have such people, but I don't think they do any more. The various speed limit changes on the A40 in the last two or three years have revealed some very basic errors in signage that I'm pretty sure render some of the new limits unenforceable. I reported some issues to them at one point, which just about got fixed, but I don't bother now. Life's too short.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:23
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:20If only there were people who understood signing requirements. IF ONLY. Alas and alack!
I'm pretty sure TfL used to have such people, but I don't think they do any more. The various speed limit changes on the A40 in the last two or three years have revealed some very basic errors in signage that I'm pretty sure render some of the new limits unenforceable. I reported some issues to them at one point, which just about got fixed, but I don't bother now. Life's too short.
I keep banging the drum, but how have things got so bad? Why has traffic engineering fallen out of the window? This should be a DfT priority to address because it's minor details being wrong like this that get people killed.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:20
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:15 Just to tick off the other access points:

Joining eastbound from Wood Lane, no cycles, pedestrians or animals.

Joining eastbound from Western Avenue, a very different no cycles, pedestrians or animals in advance of the junction, but nothing at the junction itself.

Northbound from Westfield, the world's tiniest no cycles, pedestrians or animals, on the right hand side where you won't see it.

Southbound from Westfield, just no cycles.

Northbound from Holland Park Roundabout, no cycles, pedestrians or animals on both sides.

In conclusion:
- You must not walk, cycle or ride a horse on the northbound West Cross Route or eastbound Westway.
- You may walk or herd sheep on the westbound Westway and southbound West Cross Route.
- You may not cycle on the westbound Westway or southbound West Cross Route from Edgware Road to the Paddington on-slip, but you may cycle on the rest of the route, as long as you join at Gloucester Terrace.
- You may walk, cycle or race alpacas on the eastbound Westway if you join from the footpath from Bentworth Road, by which route you will pass no signs telling you otherwise.

All in all, a complete mess. (And let's not get started on the many signage failings of the new speed limits.)
If only there were people who understood signing requirements. IF ONLY. Alas and alack!
Had a gander along the A14, and I think the weak point is Bar Hill.
Google Maps
Awfully confusingly angled sign. But even if that counts, if you exited towards Bar Hill, realised it was wrong, and did a quick U turn, you could avoid even seeing the restrictions and be on the A14 filter lane.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by jonnyf90 »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:07
Berk wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 23:43Abolishing peak-time fares might help. Just a thought!! :D
Some of the worst congestion on the Westway is during the day at weekends, when people who wouldn't dream of commuting into central London by car decide to drive in because there's no congestion charge and parking is either cheaper or free.

In any case - those who drive in to work in Central London on a weekday are already paying £11.50 congestion charge daily, many of them will pay £12.50 ULEZ charge daily, and all-day parking during office hours in London is in the region of £30 a day. These are not people who are driving because a peak hour tube fare is £2 more expensive than off-peak.
Correct.
These are people who want to guarantee a seat on the way to/from work.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:29
Had a gander along the A14, and I think the weak point is Bar Hill.
Google Maps
Awfully confusingly angled sign. But even if that counts, if you exited towards Bar Hill, realised it was wrong, and did a quick U turn, you could avoid even seeing the restrictions and be on the A14 filter lane.
It doesnt seem likely to me, if you exited via Bar Hill you would go around the roundabout and head back north up the B1050 back into the junction where you would see this sign well before the filter lane
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.25576 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

KeithW wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:47
solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:29
Had a gander along the A14, and I think the weak point is Bar Hill.
Google Maps
Awfully confusingly angled sign. But even if that counts, if you exited towards Bar Hill, realised it was wrong, and did a quick U turn, you could avoid even seeing the restrictions and be on the A14 filter lane.
It doesnt seem likely to me, if you exited via Bar Hill you would go around the roundabout and head back north up the B1050 back into the junction where you would see this sign well before the filter lane
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.25576 ... 384!8i8192
I did say U-turn! While going around the roundabout may be the sensible way of doing that, it's not a prohibited movement.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:57
I did say U-turn! While going around the roundabout may be the sensible way of doing that, it's not a prohibited movement.
Anyone stupid enough to do that deserves a ticket but is more likely to get a Darwin Award. Rule 130 of the Highway Code states that if the area is bordered by a broken white line you shouldn’t enter unless completely necessary and it’s safe to do so. Hatched areas are there to separate traffic flows, while crossing them may not be an offence in itself it would be at least driving without due care and attention.
The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
In this was case it would be unnecessary since the next roundabout is clearly visible in front of you.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

KeithW wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:51
solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:57
I did say U-turn! While going around the roundabout may be the sensible way of doing that, it's not a prohibited movement.
Anyone stupid enough to do that deserves a ticket but is more likely to get a Darwin Award. Rule 130 of the Highway Code states that if the area is bordered by a broken white line you shouldn’t enter unless completely necessary and it’s safe to do so. Hatched areas are there to separate traffic flows, while crossing them may not be an offence in itself it would be at least driving without due care and attention.
The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
In this was case it would be unnecessary since the next roundabout is clearly visible in front of you.
I mean, it would be completely necessary if you wanted to go down the A14 without passing a "no cycling" sign... although the HC part is simply "necessary", which I believe refers to for the purposes of the intended maneuver, not the maneuver itself (for instance, overtaking cyclists)... it wasn't so long ago I was overtaken by a police car (not on blues) in an outright no overtaking zone, not simply entering a dashed striped area.

Regardless, I think the main problem is the angle of the sign on the roundabout, which could well look like it's prohibiting that traffic from the roundabout, thereby making their only route the A14!

Anyway, last time I was at that junction, the LAR wasn't completed, the restrictions weren't in force, but I wasn't going to lead a group onto the A14, so we ignored the road "closure" (incompletion) instead.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:00Regardless, I think the main problem is the angle of the sign on the roundabout, which could well look like it's prohibiting that traffic from the roundabout, thereby making their only route the A14!
What's puzzling is that, at one point, a "start of motorway regulations" sign must have been planned on that sliproad, positioned just after the roundabout in the normal way. It should have been easy to retain the posts for that sign and mount the ridiculous collection of red circles there, instead of tacking it on to the flag sign. Perhaps the blue motorway signs were never planned in that much detail, in which case the all-purpose signs must have been a real rush job. And perhaps that explains it!
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:07
solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:00Regardless, I think the main problem is the angle of the sign on the roundabout, which could well look like it's prohibiting that traffic from the roundabout, thereby making their only route the A14!
What's puzzling is that, at one point, a "start of motorway regulations" sign must have been planned on that sliproad, positioned just after the roundabout in the normal way. It should have been easy to retain the posts for that sign and mount the ridiculous collection of red circles there, instead of tacking it on to the flag sign. Perhaps the blue motorway signs were never planned in that much detail, in which case the all-purpose signs must have been a real rush job. And perhaps that explains it!
I agree its undesirable , chopsticks would have been much cleaner. Given that motorway option was only around for a relatively short period they may have not been ordered. We have similar issues on some section of the A19 although as I recall they prohibit cyclists and pedestrians. A horse and trap is apparently OK. It really would be nice if we had a sign that restricted traffic to motorised vehicles on AP roads
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

KeithW wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 18:36
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:07
solocle wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:00Regardless, I think the main problem is the angle of the sign on the roundabout, which could well look like it's prohibiting that traffic from the roundabout, thereby making their only route the A14!
What's puzzling is that, at one point, a "start of motorway regulations" sign must have been planned on that sliproad, positioned just after the roundabout in the normal way. It should have been easy to retain the posts for that sign and mount the ridiculous collection of red circles there, instead of tacking it on to the flag sign. Perhaps the blue motorway signs were never planned in that much detail, in which case the all-purpose signs must have been a real rush job. And perhaps that explains it!
I agree its undesirable , chopsticks would have been much cleaner. Given that motorway option was only around for a relatively short period they may have not been ordered. We have similar issues on some section of the A19 although as I recall they prohibit cyclists and pedestrians. A horse and trap is apparently OK. It really would be nice if we had a sign that restricted traffic to motorised vehicles on AP roads
Something like this?
Test.jpg
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 »

solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 09:56
KeithW wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 18:36
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:07
What's puzzling is that, at one point, a "start of motorway regulations" sign must have been planned on that sliproad, positioned just after the roundabout in the normal way. It should have been easy to retain the posts for that sign and mount the ridiculous collection of red circles there, instead of tacking it on to the flag sign. Perhaps the blue motorway signs were never planned in that much detail, in which case the all-purpose signs must have been a real rush job. And perhaps that explains it!
I agree its undesirable , chopsticks would have been much cleaner. Given that motorway option was only around for a relatively short period they may have not been ordered. We have similar issues on some section of the A19 although as I recall they prohibit cyclists and pedestrians. A horse and trap is apparently OK. It really would be nice if we had a sign that restricted traffic to motorised vehicles on AP roads
Something like this?
Test.jpg
I raise you: https://showmeasign.online/2018/01/02/e ... g-to-work/
Bryn
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She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Patrick Harper »

If it was easier to get a TRO on the Huntingdon Bypass to impose motorway-style restrictions than to actually make it a motorway (whilst under construction), the solution must be to make motorway orders as easy to pass as TROs.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:58
solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 09:56
KeithW wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 18:36

I agree its undesirable , chopsticks would have been much cleaner. Given that motorway option was only around for a relatively short period they may have not been ordered. We have similar issues on some section of the A19 although as I recall they prohibit cyclists and pedestrians. A horse and trap is apparently OK. It really would be nice if we had a sign that restricted traffic to motorised vehicles on AP roads
Something like this?
Test.jpg
I raise you: https://showmeasign.online/2018/01/02/e ... g-to-work/
Incidentally part of the A1(M) was "upgraded" from the A1 without provision of a LAR, at Dishforth - Here
While there is a (mile longer) alternative, where parts of the A168 are actually signed "The NORTH", there's no signage to get prohibited traffic through the maze of country lanes, never mind the question of suitability for larger prohibited traffic. I don't know how that got past section 18 - I believe it's even the Roman Dere St, so a public right of way from time immemorial to 2012.

Back to signage, the problem would be that, without breaking the mould, you've either got rectangular motorway signs are blue circular mandatory signs. So a blue circle version of "no motor vehicles" would be "only motor vehicles", reasonably obviously within the existing framework. Using only a car could be misconstrued as "only cars", and if it's rectangular, that's then informational, with the exception of motorway signs...
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