Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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thatapanydude
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by thatapanydude »

NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 22:25
Slight digression but would you agree the A40 is London's most important/strategic road - because its the main route to the North, West, South West of England and Heathrow from C.London.
The A40 isn’t a route I would ever use from central London to Yorkshire, either M1 or A1 then stick with either the A1 or A41, it’s crazy to go around the M25 to then take the A40.
From Leeds to Baker Street, while the M1/A41 probably is quicker and shorter it’s not beyond the realms of possibility to use the M40/M25 certainly to the M1. From Leeds, Sheffield anyway you could use the M1, M69 or A43 to the M40.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Scratchwood »

Truvelo wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 21:29
Phil wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 21:13
thatapanydude wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:04 Slight digression but would you agree the A40 is London's most important/strategic road - because its the main route to the North, West, South West of England and Heathrow from C.London.
The A40 is only the 'most important' by virtue of the simple fact that the majority of the English population live north and west of London.
That's true but regardless of which direction you're entering London it is also the only route which is fully dualled right into the centre. That may not be of any value to someone who is commuting from Kent or Essex though.
The M11/A12 and A13 (plus Limehouse Link etc) reach almost as far in, depending on how you define "central" London
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by trickstat »

Scratchwood wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 00:31
Truvelo wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 21:29
Phil wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 21:13

The A40 is only the 'most important' by virtue of the simple fact that the majority of the English population live north and west of London.
That's true but regardless of which direction you're entering London it is also the only route which is fully dualled right into the centre. That may not be of any value to someone who is commuting from Kent or Essex though.
The M11/A12 and A13 (plus Limehouse Link etc) reach almost as far in, depending on how you define "central" London
If you use the Congestion Charge zone as a benchmark, the A40 gets much closer.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

Scratchwood wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 00:31
Truvelo wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 21:29
Phil wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 21:13

The A40 is only the 'most important' by virtue of the simple fact that the majority of the English population live north and west of London.
That's true but regardless of which direction you're entering London it is also the only route which is fully dualled right into the centre. That may not be of any value to someone who is commuting from Kent or Essex though.
The M11/A12 and A13 (plus Limehouse Link etc) reach almost as far in, depending on how you define "central" London
Personally I think the A12 should be upgraded and the M11 extended - perhaps coupled even with upgrades to the Blackwall Tunnel. The M11 can run through the A12 and Blackwall Tunnel then over the former A102M, and then the A2 will only take minor grade separating to upgrade to motorway up to the M2. Then the M2 can go through East London as an Urban Smart Motorway (D3ALR) then over where the M11 now is and then to the A14 and A1.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 00:39
Personally I think the A12 should be upgraded and the M11 extended - perhaps coupled even with upgrades to the Blackwall Tunnel. The M11 can run through the A12 and Blackwall Tunnel then over the former A102M, and then the A2 will only take minor grade separating to upgrade to motorway up to the M2. Then the M2 can go through East London as an Urban Smart Motorway (D3ALR) then over where the M11 now is and then to the A14 and A1.
Well the A406/A12 was upgraded and you can drive from the M11 to the Blackwall Tunnel. This alas cannot be upgraded in any meaningful way. The first bore dates back to the 1890's and the second bore the 1960's. As for the A2 you must be joking. Lots of luck turning this into a motorway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.46292 ... 384!8i8192

The M11 has an AADF of 100k it would be a bad idea to send any more traffic up it.

So lets be a little more ambitious - build a new Thames crossing east of Dartford complete with a new motorway link to the M25 at North Ockenden and the M2 east of Gravesend. That way you can also handle traffic for Tilbury, the A13, the A127 and A12 and reduce the load on the Dartford Crossing as well as providing a degree of strategic redundancy - neat eh.

Here's the best part of this plan - Its already scheduled and site surveys are under way.
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/lower-tha ... ssing-home
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 08:42
EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 00:39
Personally I think the A12 should be upgraded and the M11 extended - perhaps coupled even with upgrades to the Blackwall Tunnel. The M11 can run through the A12 and Blackwall Tunnel then over the former A102M, and then the A2 will only take minor grade separating to upgrade to motorway up to the M2. Then the M2 can go through East London as an Urban Smart Motorway (D3ALR) then over where the M11 now is and then to the A14 and A1.
Well the A406/A12 was upgraded and you can drive from the M11 to the Blackwall Tunnel. This alas cannot be upgraded in any meaningful way. The first bore dates back to the 1890's and the second bore the 1960's. As for the A2 you must be joking. Lots of luck turning this into a motorway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.46292 ... 384!8i8192

The M11 has an AADF of 100k it would be a bad idea to send any more traffic up it.

So lets be a little more ambitious - build a new Thames crossing east of Dartford complete with a new motorway link to the M25 at North Ockenden and the M2 east of Gravesend. That way you can also handle traffic for Tilbury, the A13, the A127 and A12 and reduce the load on the Dartford Crossing as well as providing a degree of strategic redundancy - neat eh.

Here's the best part of this plan - Its already scheduled and site surveys are under way.
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/lower-tha ... ssing-home
Don’t get me wrong: the Lower Thames Crossing will have immense value of relieving Dartford once it opens. The purpose of the M2 extension through East London is mostly for an urban motorway purpose rather than a strategic river crossing. So traffic from the North (M11) and South (A2) as well as the Circulars, will have a high quality local link into Greenwich and East London.
The ULEZ will apply to keep emissions down.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:04
Don’t get me wrong: the Lower Thames Crossing will have immense value of relieving Dartford once it opens. The purpose of the M2 extension through East London is mostly for an urban motorway purpose rather than a strategic river crossing. So traffic from the North (M11) and South (A2) as well as the Circulars, will have a high quality local link into Greenwich and East London.
The ULEZ will apply to keep emissions down.
Which leaves the minor problem that the existing roads are already running at full capacity and enlarging them would involve large scale demolition which is NOT going to happen. What you have got is as good as its going to get. I wouldn't mention emissions if I were you, the ultimate way to get them down is to make the A2 a cycle superhighway, as a concession I'd allow electric bikes and escooters.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:19
EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:04
Don’t get me wrong: the Lower Thames Crossing will have immense value of relieving Dartford once it opens. The purpose of the M2 extension through East London is mostly for an urban motorway purpose rather than a strategic river crossing. So traffic from the North (M11) and South (A2) as well as the Circulars, will have a high quality local link into Greenwich and East London.
The ULEZ will apply to keep emissions down.
Which leaves the minor problem that the existing roads are already running at full capacity and enlarging them would involve large scale demolition which is NOT going to happen. What you have got is as good as its going to get. I wouldn't mention emissions if I were you, the ultimate way to get them down is to make the A2 a cycle superhighway, as a concession I'd allow electric bikes and escooters.
It would not involve nearly as much demolition as converting some other routes.

Goodness, does anyone like my plan!?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by SteveA30 »

No-one has to like it, it is just your opinion, valid and beyond challenging. Incorrect information can be corrected but, opinions can't, and shouldn't be. Your plan is fine, for you. No-one else matters.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by MFB »

Interesting throwback video to its construction and effect on local residents:

https://youtu.be/nOIRjYUrhZc
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Gav »

One we have electric cars in abundance how are they going to treat the ULEZ ? there will be no need for it for cars...
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:11 One we have electric cars in abundance how are they going to treat the ULEZ ? there will be no need for it for cars...
Tyre rubber doesn't produce particulate matter then? And flooding cities with large vehicles clean or not is still not solving the congestion or road safety negatives of driving.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Gav »

Not what i was asking was it ?

ULEZ is purely ultra low emission zone, rubber from tyres isnt emissions is it ?

Road congestion, thats for the congerstion zone to sort, this talk of ULEZ expansion isnt dealing with congestion issues. but emissions whice are going to be cut massively soon enough.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:32 Not what i was asking was it ?

ULEZ is purely ultra low emission zone, rubber from tyres isnt emissions is it ?
"Emissions" is a catch all term from things chucked into the atmosphere by vehicles, which includes brake dust and tyre rubber particulates. The ULEZ is a permanent scheme designed to tackle these, completely separate from the Clean Air Zones in other cities which have to be removed when air quality passes below a threshold.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by DavidBrown »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:32 Not what i was asking was it ?

ULEZ is purely ultra low emission zone, rubber from tyres isnt emissions is it ?
"Emissions" is a catch all term from things chucked into the atmosphere by vehicles, which includes brake dust and tyre rubber particulates. The ULEZ is a permanent scheme designed to tackle these, completely separate from the Clean Air Zones in other cities which have to be removed when air quality passes below a threshold.
I get both sides of that coin in that the ULEZ will do absolutely nothing to reduce congestion and the use of private vehicles especially as, as it stands, it also includes the vast majority of modern petrol vehicles. A pure and simple congestion charge doesn't discriminate in that respect.
Tyre wear and brake dust are most definitely emissions, and as fuels get cleaner their proportion of emissions per vehicle becomes greater. But I guess on that basis, pedal cycles also have tyres and brakes, so where do we draw the line on that? Like fuels, surely improved science and technology in that sector is the way to go?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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DavidBrown wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:44
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:32 Not what i was asking was it ?

ULEZ is purely ultra low emission zone, rubber from tyres isnt emissions is it ?
"Emissions" is a catch all term from things chucked into the atmosphere by vehicles, which includes brake dust and tyre rubber particulates. The ULEZ is a permanent scheme designed to tackle these, completely separate from the Clean Air Zones in other cities which have to be removed when air quality passes below a threshold.
I get both sides of that coin in that the ULEZ will do absolutely nothing to reduce congestion and the use of private vehicles especially as, as it stands, it also includes the vast majority of modern petrol vehicles. A pure and simple congestion charge doesn't discriminate in that respect.
Tyre wear and brake dust are most definitely emissions, and as fuels get cleaner their proportion of emissions per vehicle becomes greater. But I guess on that basis, pedal cycles also have tyres and brakes, so where do we draw the line on that? Like fuels, surely improved science and technology in that sector is the way to go?
Simple physics there - brake dust from a pedal cycle is miniscule because the amount of friction required to come to a stop is negligible. Contrast with stopping a car even from 20 mph which requires a huge transfer of energy. Several million bikes would still produce less dust than the equivalent number of cars.

The reality is driving has huge social and ecological costs that we are all insulated from and we are going to have a sharp wake up call in the future when those costs become direct rather than being buried under political cowardice.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Big L »

Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:11 One we have electric cars in abundance how are they going to treat the ULEZ ? there will be no need for it for cars...
When I saw this my initial reaction was that the powers-that-be will find something else to keep the money rolling in. And then along came this...
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:29 Tyre rubber doesn't produce particulate matter then? And flooding cities with large vehicles clean or not is still not solving the congestion or road safety negatives of driving.
...and there we have it.

Quite how they will differentiate between the tyre and brakepad emissions of lorries v cars v motorbikes v cycles v anything else with wheels or brakes will be interesting to watch. But the money will keep rolling in.

If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:50
DavidBrown wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:44
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36

"Emissions" is a catch all term from things chucked into the atmosphere by vehicles, which includes brake dust and tyre rubber particulates. The ULEZ is a permanent scheme designed to tackle these, completely separate from the Clean Air Zones in other cities which have to be removed when air quality passes below a threshold.
I get both sides of that coin in that the ULEZ will do absolutely nothing to reduce congestion and the use of private vehicles especially as, as it stands, it also includes the vast majority of modern petrol vehicles. A pure and simple congestion charge doesn't discriminate in that respect.
Tyre wear and brake dust are most definitely emissions, and as fuels get cleaner their proportion of emissions per vehicle becomes greater. But I guess on that basis, pedal cycles also have tyres and brakes, so where do we draw the line on that? Like fuels, surely improved science and technology in that sector is the way to go?
Simple physics there - brake dust from a pedal cycle is miniscule because the amount of friction required to come to a stop is negligible. Contrast with stopping a car even from 20 mph which requires a huge transfer of energy. Several million bikes would still produce less dust than the equivalent number of cars.

The reality is driving has huge social and ecological costs that we are all insulated from and we are going to have a sharp wake up call in the future when those costs become direct rather than being buried under political cowardice.
Brake dust will reduce as vehicles switch to EVs, using regenerative braking rather than pad friction - however tyre particles will increase as EVs are heavier than their IC counterpart due to the battery weight.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Big L wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:56
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:11 One we have electric cars in abundance how are they going to treat the ULEZ ? there will be no need for it for cars...
When I saw this my initial reaction was that the powers-that-be will find something else to keep the money rolling in. And then along came this...
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:29 Tyre rubber doesn't produce particulate matter then? And flooding cities with large vehicles clean or not is still not solving the congestion or road safety negatives of driving.
...and there we have it.

Quite how they will differentiate between the tyre and brakepad emissions of lorries v cars v motorbikes v cycles v anything else with wheels or brakes will be interesting to watch. But the money will keep rolling in.

If the ULEZ was designed to deal with tyre and brake emissions then why are dirty ICEs the only current target?
So what's your fix then? Hope the problem goes away?
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

If we had to demolish the Westway we could make a really nice long boulevard for NMU traffic.

We’d have lots of space to work with.

On one side there could be a sheltered foot way and cycle track for when it’s raining, and an open-air one in the middle.

LED lighting - perhaps multicolored catenary mood lighting slung across the boulevard.

Lots of trees too, maybe children’s play areas.

And on one side there could also be a long parade of shops or even a link to Westfield nearby, going over what was once the A40(M) to M41 interchange.

Bus lanes only - A40 tunnel access to a car park.

If the A40 has to be rerouted, a tunnel is one option. But it should be no wider than D2. The aim is to get private vehicles off the road.



I am not of the belief that urban motorways are the future in a sustainable city.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
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