Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris Bertram »

solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:46
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:58
solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 09:56 Something like this?
Test.jpg
I raise you: https://showmeasign.online/2018/01/02/e ... g-to-work/
Incidentally part of the A1(M) was "upgraded" from the A1 without provision of a LAR, at Dishforth - Here
While there is a (mile longer) alternative, where parts of the A168 are actually signed "The NORTH", there's no signage to get prohibited traffic through the maze of country lanes, never mind the question of suitability for larger prohibited traffic. I don't know how that got past section 18 - I believe it's even the Roman Dere St, so a public right of way from time immemorial to 2012.
IIRC it was allowed as there were no frontage accesses between J49 and J50. It's a local *access* road, remember, provided for that purpose not for prohibited vehicles to avoid the motorway, and there are many miles of motorway without LARs shadowing them where prohibited vehicles have to plan an alternative route. It looks to me like there's a narrow country lane between Dishforth and Rainton, but for a more reliable and wider route I'd take the minor road via Sharow to the edge of Ripon* and then come back along A61 to pick up A6055 from the Baldersby junction. It is a bit longer but probably safer. As to how public right of way was removed, I can't comment on that, but I don't suppose it was done without going through legal processes.

* In the days when stubble burning was common, I remember this road, partially unfenced, being affected by smoke being blown across, thankfully that's a thing of the past.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:46
Incidentally part of the A1(M) was "upgraded" from the A1 without provision of a LAR, at Dishforth - Here
While there is a (mile longer) alternative, where parts of the A168 are actually signed "The NORTH", there's no signage to get prohibited traffic through the maze of country lanes, never mind the question of suitability for larger prohibited traffic. I don't know how that got past section 18 - I believe it's even the Roman Dere St, so a public right of way from time immemorial to 2012.

Back to signage, the problem would be that, without breaking the mould, you've either got rectangular motorway signs are blue circular mandatory signs. So a blue circle version of "no motor vehicles" would be "only motor vehicles", reasonably obviously within the existing framework. Using only a car could be misconstrued as "only cars", and if it's rectangular, that's then informational, with the exception of motorway signs...
That is because there is nothing much to access. As I recall there is a clay pigeon shooting range, a cottage and a truck dealership. There comes a point where spending public money on a road that would have a handful of users a day is not justifiable, if any Romans turn up to ask what happened to their road we'll worry about it then.

The old A1 had some appallingly dangerous flat junctions which as I recall were actually blocked off for safety reasons. Here is one of them.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.17330 ... 6656?hl=en

Between Rainton and the A1 there was NOTHING , not even pig sty, The church that had been there was long gone
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 13:34
solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:46
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:58
I raise you: https://showmeasign.online/2018/01/02/e ... g-to-work/
Incidentally part of the A1(M) was "upgraded" from the A1 without provision of a LAR, at Dishforth - Here
While there is a (mile longer) alternative, where parts of the A168 are actually signed "The NORTH", there's no signage to get prohibited traffic through the maze of country lanes, never mind the question of suitability for larger prohibited traffic. I don't know how that got past section 18 - I believe it's even the Roman Dere St, so a public right of way from time immemorial to 2012.
IIRC it was allowed as there were no frontage accesses between J49 and J50. It's a local *access* road, remember, provided for that purpose not for prohibited vehicles to avoid the motorway, and there are many miles of motorway without LARs shadowing them where prohibited vehicles have to plan an alternative route. It looks to me like there's a narrow country lane between Dishforth and Rainton, but for a more reliable and wider route I'd take the minor road via Sharow to the edge of Ripon* and then come back along A61 to pick up A6055 from the Baldersby junction. It is a bit longer but probably safer. As to how public right of way was removed, I can't comment on that, but I don't suppose it was done without going through legal processes.

* In the days when stubble burning was common, I remember this road, partially unfenced, being affected by smoke being blown across, thankfully that's a thing of the past.
While lots of motorways don't have LARs, e.g. the M40, they were new build. And they often have pretty obvious routes to avoid them - when I cycled Oxford to London, for instance, I used the A40 between Stokenchurch and Denham - avoiding the ends for comfort purposes (e.g. Western avenue), and following the A4020, so the old A40, into C. London.

Equally, the M5 has the A38, the M6 has the A6, the M4 has the A4, the M1 has the A5... OK, those roads don't necessarily work as LARs, but they serve long distance traffic rather well. There are more local roads that serve unless you want to get to, say, a midline MSA, and even then it's often possible. They're an addition to the extant road network, not a replacement.

The A1(M), as far as I'm aware, is a unique example of a long distance motorway being built on an existing ROW. I've been looking at plotting a long distance cycling route (Fosse Way from Exeter to Lincoln, Ermine St up to York, then maybe another 200 miles northward to make it a round 500), and it would be rather good to be able to navigate it without relying on a battery powered GPS gizmo. You'll also notice the affinity for roman roads...

As it happens I'd probably decide to head for Leeds before making for Gretna, revisiting old haunts like Otley and the Dales, but the most true to the journey would be to follow Dere St, and the old A1 would be an attraction to a Sabrist. The alternative if going more directly north is the A19, which hardly seems pleasant - and either going via the A684 or Barnard Castle (probably not on the A66! although I have used a section around Whinfell before...), you hit the Dishforth gap.

If hitting that late at night, with an out of charge GPS, finding the way through Rainton it would be very easy to get lost, which would make the hard shoulder of the A1(M) quite tempting.
KeithW wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 13:58 That is because there is nothing much to access. As I recall there is a clay pigeon shooting range, a cottage and a truck dealership. There comes a point where spending public money on a road that would have a handful of users a day is not justifiable, if any Romans turn up to ask what happened to their road we'll worry about it then.

The old A1 had some appallingly dangerous flat junctions which as I recall were actually blocked off for safety reasons. Here is one of them.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.17330 ... 6656?hl=en

Between Rainton and the A1 there was NOTHING , not even pig sty, The church that had been there was long gone
The least they could do is put up a couple of direction signs - like this example on The A34
But if money is such an issue, then perhaps a special road allowing all classes of traffic, with a direction for non-motorway traffic to trundle slowly along the hard shoulder between the two junctions, is more appropriate...
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris Bertram »

If the police find you on a pushbike on the motorway - and it's likely that you will be reported by a passing motorist - you will be escorted off pretty quickly with a flea in your ear, if not a NIP for disregarding the restrictions that apply. And we are often reminded on here how dangerous a place the hard shoulder of a motorway is in a car. If you are an even more vulnerable road user such as a cyclist, then I would politely speculate on how long you would last before earning your Darwin Award.

tl;dr - For Pete's sake, stay off the motorway.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Phil »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:26
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:23
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:20If only there were people who understood signing requirements. IF ONLY. Alas and alack!
I'm pretty sure TfL used to have such people, but I don't think they do any more. The various speed limit changes on the A40 in the last two or three years have revealed some very basic errors in signage that I'm pretty sure render some of the new limits unenforceable. I reported some issues to them at one point, which just about got fixed, but I don't bother now. Life's too short.
I keep banging the drum, but how have things got so bad? Why has traffic engineering fallen out of the window? This should be a DfT priority to address because it's minor details being wrong like this that get people killed.
Oh come on Bryn, you know the score. If the DfT actually did actually want to address such failings then the first thing it would have to do is employ engineers (not outsourcing specialists, consultants, lawyers, accountants or their mates from Eton)

Government policy is they don't need any actual engineering specialists in house - it goes against the principles of 'small Government' and taking advantage of the 'freedom of the market' or 'private sector expertise' that politicians of a certain party keep telling is the way to cure all ills.

You think its bad now - just wait until the privatisation fanatics succeed in hiving off Highways England off to their city mates for a quick buck...
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 14:44 If the police find you on a pushbike on the motorway - and it's likely that you will be reported by a passing motorist - you will be escorted off pretty quickly with a flea in your ear, if not a NIP for disregarding the restrictions that apply. And we are often reminded on here how dangerous a place the hard shoulder of a motorway is in a car. If you are an even more vulnerable road user such as a cyclist, then I would politely speculate on how long you would last before earning your Darwin Award.

tl;dr - For Pete's sake, stay off the motorway.
It is in fact a situation I once faced, with the A34, trying to get to Oxford from Bicester. At 5pm on a weekday. Google Maps cycling directions advertised taking me to Weston-on-the-Green, then back roads, but on reaching that junction decided to recalculate and take me back onto the A34. And I didn't have the local knowledge to avoid it. Most of that section of the A34 is D2H, so there was perhaps a metre of hard strip to ride in with lorries thundering past in L1. It disappeared for the last section from the Kidlington junction.

Like I say, a lack of local knowledge, combined with a software malfunction. The only other route I could have taken without risking getting hopelessly lost would have been the M40 hard shoulder to the A40 junction, then there's a cycleway. Obviously illegal - but I'm almost certain it would have been safer than the A34.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Phil wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 16:27
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:26
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:23
I'm pretty sure TfL used to have such people, but I don't think they do any more. The various speed limit changes on the A40 in the last two or three years have revealed some very basic errors in signage that I'm pretty sure render some of the new limits unenforceable. I reported some issues to them at one point, which just about got fixed, but I don't bother now. Life's too short.
I keep banging the drum, but how have things got so bad? Why has traffic engineering fallen out of the window? This should be a DfT priority to address because it's minor details being wrong like this that get people killed.
Oh come on Bryn, you know the score. If the DfT actually did actually want to address such failings then the first thing it would have to do is employ engineers (not outsourcing specialists, consultants, lawyers, accountants or their mates from Eton)

Government policy is they don't need any actual engineering specialists in house - it goes against the principles of 'small Government' and taking advantage of the 'freedom of the market' or 'private sector expertise' that politicians of a certain party keep telling is the way to cure all ills.

You think its bad now - just wait until the privatisation fanatics succeed in hiving off Highways England off to their city mates for a quick buck...
I thought they already had given the general quality of scheme design lately...
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW »

solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 14:19
The A1(M), as far as I'm aware, is a unique example of a long distance motorway being built on an existing ROW. I've been looking at plotting a long distance cycling route (Fosse Way from Exeter to Lincoln, Ermine St up to York, then maybe another 200 miles northward to make it a round 500), and it would be rather good to be able to navigate it without relying on a battery powered GPS gizmo. You'll also notice the affinity for roman roads...

As it happens I'd probably decide to head for Leeds before making for Gretna, revisiting old haunts like Otley and the Dales, but the most true to the journey would be to follow Dere St, and the old A1 would be an attraction to a Sabrist. The alternative if going more directly north is the A19, which hardly seems pleasant - and either going via the A684 or Barnard Castle (probably not on the A66! although I have used a section around Whinfell before...), you hit the Dishforth gap.
If I wanted to cycle north I would use the A167 much of which is the old A1 route. The A1 north of Dishforth is bleak and very unpleasant even in a car.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 00:12
solocle wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 14:19
The A1(M), as far as I'm aware, is a unique example of a long distance motorway being built on an existing ROW. I've been looking at plotting a long distance cycling route (Fosse Way from Exeter to Lincoln, Ermine St up to York, then maybe another 200 miles northward to make it a round 500), and it would be rather good to be able to navigate it without relying on a battery powered GPS gizmo. You'll also notice the affinity for roman roads...

As it happens I'd probably decide to head for Leeds before making for Gretna, revisiting old haunts like Otley and the Dales, but the most true to the journey would be to follow Dere St, and the old A1 would be an attraction to a Sabrist. The alternative if going more directly north is the A19, which hardly seems pleasant - and either going via the A684 or Barnard Castle (probably not on the A66! although I have used a section around Whinfell before...), you hit the Dishforth gap.
If I wanted to cycle north I would use the A167 much of which is the old A1 route. The A1 north of Dishforth is bleak and very unpleasant even in a car.
Problem is that the overall route heads NW from York (I have family in Cumbria, but reaching Scotland is worth a detour).
Capture4.JPG
As that route is 502 miles, I'm unlikely to change it, but it is a change of pace from steaming up the roman roads. Including going over Fleet Moss, which judging by the last time I did it, with fresh legs, is going to be quite sore after 600 km...
Capture4.JPG
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by A9NWIL »

Phil wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 16:27
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:26
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:23
I'm pretty sure TfL used to have such people, but I don't think they do any more. The various speed limit changes on the A40 in the last two or three years have revealed some very basic errors in signage that I'm pretty sure render some of the new limits unenforceable. I reported some issues to them at one point, which just about got fixed, but I don't bother now. Life's too short.
I keep banging the drum, but how have things got so bad? Why has traffic engineering fallen out of the window? This should be a DfT priority to address because it's minor details being wrong like this that get people killed.
Oh come on Bryn, you know the score. If the DfT actually did actually want to address such failings then the first thing it would have to do is employ engineers (not outsourcing specialists, consultants, lawyers, accountants or their mates from Eton)

Government policy is they don't need any actual engineering specialists in house - it goes against the principles of 'small Government' and taking advantage of the 'freedom of the market' or 'private sector expertise' that politicians of a certain party keep telling is the way to cure all ills.

You think its bad now - just wait until the privatisation fanatics succeed in hiving off Highways England off to their city mates for a quick buck...
Well it might, thankfully, take them a while considering that rail has had to be semi nationalised in the past year as the old rail companies were about to go bust! It shows how privatising things like this really dont work, some things are just meant to be state run in perpetuity, but they still like to mess.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Glenn A »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 14:44 If the police find you on a pushbike on the motorway - and it's likely that you will be reported by a passing motorist - you will be escorted off pretty quickly with a flea in your ear, if not a NIP for disregarding the restrictions that apply. And we are often reminded on here how dangerous a place the hard shoulder of a motorway is in a car. If you are an even more vulnerable road user such as a cyclist, then I would politely speculate on how long you would last before earning your Darwin Award.

tl;dr - For Pete's sake, stay off the motorway.
I had a friend at Coventry University from the city who thought as a 13 year old taking a bike road from Coventry to Bedworth via the M6 was a good laugh. He was stopped half a mile from junction 2 by a police car and his bike was confiscated and no doubt probably received the hiding of a lifetime when he got home.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by silverfoxcc »

Ahh the NSL

I once drove from Euston Statiom A501/A40(M)/A40/M25/M3/A322 (must be the late 70s) late one Sat night in 40mins and never exceeded the limit Every light to on the A501 was green and didn't touch the brakes once frrom Paddington to getting off the M3

Never did do it that quick again, but a few times in the 50min area. The Gods certainly smiled that night
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by SouthWest Philip »

silverfoxcc wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 21:03 Ahh the NSL

I once drove from Euston Statiom A501/A40(M)/A40/M25/M3/A322 (must be the late 70s) late one Sat night in 40mins...
Won't have been late 70s. The M25 in those parts didn't open until 1985!
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by ManomayLR »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 21:11
silverfoxcc wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 21:03 Ahh the NSL

I once drove from Euston Statiom A501/A40(M)/A40/M25/M3/A322 (must be the late 70s) late one Sat night in 40mins...
Won't have been late 70s. The M25 in those parts didn't open until 1985!
And only ten years later it got variable speed limits!!!
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by solocle »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 19:18
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 14:44 If the police find you on a pushbike on the motorway - and it's likely that you will be reported by a passing motorist - you will be escorted off pretty quickly with a flea in your ear, if not a NIP for disregarding the restrictions that apply. And we are often reminded on here how dangerous a place the hard shoulder of a motorway is in a car. If you are an even more vulnerable road user such as a cyclist, then I would politely speculate on how long you would last before earning your Darwin Award.

tl;dr - For Pete's sake, stay off the motorway.
I had a friend at Coventry University from the city who thought as a 13 year old taking a bike road from Coventry to Bedworth via the M6 was a good laugh. He was stopped half a mile from junction 2 by a police car and his bike was confiscated and no doubt probably received the hiding of a lifetime when he got home.
I posted this on botched road signs last year.
solocle wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 21:39 ...Compared to that, this one would be excusable. If they closed the gate, that is. M40, Milton Common, looking North.
Image
It's one thing in daytime, but at night, approaching from the A329 (to the left/west), I can tell you from personal experience that said sign is completely invisible with the gate open. No chopsticks, a direction sign with a non-reflective no-entry symbol, a fact further confounded by the presence of another gated entrance between said sign and the slip road, and a legitmate NMU turning (A40) <200 yds further on. Complete recipe for somebody to end up cycling on the motorway.
Let's just say that I know somebody who did make that mistake at that junction, and lived to tell the tale. Naturally, I went to investigate how such a thing could happen, and it was pretty shockingly bad.

Fortunately it's less than a mile up the mainline to the old end of the M40 and the A40 spur, which is effectively the next section of the A40, but with blue signs and a hard shoulder.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by JammyDodge »

Looks like if central government won't cover TfL's deficit, then the Westway, Rotherhithe Tunnel and Gallows Corner Flyover could all be at risk of closure due to a lack of funds for needed repairs

Evening Standard: Sadiq Khan warns Tube, buses and cycle schemes ‘face axe’ in dire funding alert.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ ... 66801.html

City A.M.: TfL: Network planning for "managed decline" and return to 1970s without Whitehall funding.
https://www.cityam.com/tfl-network-plan ... l-funding/
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by doebag »

Strange they use Gallows Corner as an example.
The thing must be well past it’s planned life by now, indeed it was closed this week for urgent repairs.
It would be interesting to know the predicted traffic flows (chaos) if they removed it now.

The Westway and Rotherhithe tunnel would be almost terminal if they were closed forever this weekend.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 »

JammyDodge wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 02:51 Looks like if central government won't cover TfL's deficit, then the Westway, Rotherhithe Tunnel and Gallows Corner Flyover could all be at risk of closure due to a lack of funds for needed repairs

Evening Standard: Sadiq Khan warns Tube, buses and cycle schemes ‘face axe’ in dire funding alert.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ ... 66801.html

City A.M.: TfL: Network planning for "managed decline" and return to 1970s without Whitehall funding.
https://www.cityam.com/tfl-network-plan ... l-funding/
The current funding settlement runs until 11 December, and the previous funding settlements have all been agreed at the very last moment. This is part of the negotiation being played out in the press.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Patrick Harper »

Going back to the question, I don't think any heavy, strictly urban structures like Westway or the Hammersmith Flyover should be removed as long as they are safe enough to keep open. However, I don't think they should be replaced once they become unsound.

That means the start of the M4 would probably have to move to The Parkway at some point this century.
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Runwell »

doebag wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 06:52 Strange they use Gallows Corner as an example.
The thing must be well past it’s planned life by now, indeed it was closed this week for urgent repairs.
It would be interesting to know the predicted traffic flows (chaos) if they removed it now.

The Westway and Rotherhithe tunnel would be almost terminal if they were closed forever this weekend.
I noticed signage recently installed now banning any larger vehicles from the flyover, presumably for good?

Meanwhile, plans recently for revamping the Gallows Corner junction look dead, and a like-for-like replacement flyover (to modern standards) looks the only option being pursued. Whether even that goes ahead with this funding dispute remains to be seen.
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