BBC: Birmingham road news

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RichardA35
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by RichardA35 »

rhyds wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 16:37
RichardA35 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 15:44 I would suggest that as the policy of the council is to promote public transport and cycling, there will be little enthusiasm for such a measure and the car traveller in the city would be better advised to seek a public transport/car share/cycling alternative.
And if there isn't one? (very possible considering Brum's lack of light rail)
I would refer to the bus map where there are many and few, if any, populated "desert" areas. This is a city not a rural area.
PS what is Brum's tram network then if not light rail?
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Jeni »

rhyds wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 16:37
RichardA35 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 15:44 I would suggest that as the policy of the council is to promote public transport and cycling, there will be little enthusiasm for such a measure and the car traveller in the city would be better advised to seek a public transport/car share/cycling alternative.
And if there isn't one? (very possible considering Brum's lack of light rail)
Brum has a very good urban rail network with an excellent bus network to back it up.

Coming from outside of Brum there are many excellently located stations with free car parks on the edge.

Birmingham has really upped it's game on sustainable travel in recent years, other cities including Manchester could learn from it
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by ais523 »

The main issue with Birmingham's train (and tram) service is that it's almost entirely radial (which puts a lot of strain on New Street and to some extent Moor Street). Other than that, it's fairly good.

The buses are excellent, though, and cover almost all parts of the conurbation with orbital, radial, and even spiral routes. (They're also much more reliable than the trains in bad weather). Sadly, they aren't as reliable as they could be (often getting caught up in traffic, especially in peak times), and are normally more expensive than the trains except for journeys into/through the centre (although most train journeys end up going through the centre due to the lack of orbital train lines).

Walking is also very viable for shorter journeys, and the cycle provision is improving all the time.

As for the "Sprint" development, I'm fairly confused because there are a number of limited stop routes already; for example, one of the suggested Sprint lines is an exact equivalent to the current limited-stop bus X2. It seems like the idea behind Sprint is to create what's effectively a tram line, but run using buses rather than trams in order to save having to install rails?
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Chris Bertram »

Jeni wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 16:44 Brum has a very good urban rail network with an excellent bus network to back it up.
Not nearly as good as it could be. Line and station closures have left large areas of the city far from rail connections. We're still waiting for the Camp Hill line to have passenger service reinstated, and even then not all the closed stations will be reopened. The Harborne line will never be reopened. There is no station on the Stour Valley Line out of BNS until Smethwick Rolfe Street, and the Sutton Park line is devoid of stations. It *has* improved in the 30-plus years since I moved there, but there is still much to do.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Truvelo »

And no doubt the city council will claim it's a success because the pandemic has reduced traffic levels so the congestion this senseless act would have caused hasn't materialised :@

Herbert Manzoni will definitely be turning in his grave :@
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by c2R »

We didn't have a wiki page for it, so I've created one Perry Barr.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Perry Barr :


Perry Barr is a signalised junction on the A34 in northern Birmingham.

The A34 crossed the junction on an S2 grade-separated flyover from the late 60s/early 70s until 2021. The flyover was closed to traffic from the morning of 8th January 2021 and demolished on 6th February 2021.

|

... Read More
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Truvelo »

Thanks to Steven's addition of the OS maps in the wiki article it has confirmed my suspicion of the S2 flyover being a quick fix to tie into the A34 when the original intention of providing a fully grade separated route from the city centre to the unbuilt M6 junction was made redundant by the Aston Expressway. These maps show an intention to complete the original proposals and the Aston Expressway. In the first map the sections in black dots are either complete or programmed for completion by 1968, including the unbuilt section between the flyover and the M6. Despite my best attempts I have never found maps showing detailed plans for the flyover. One can only imagine if something really spectacular was planned so the A34 towards Walsall and the unbuilt section both merged at a freeflow junction towards the city centre.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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Perry Barr flyover is no more...

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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Big L »

Bfivethousand wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 23:36 Perry Barr flyover is no more...

Birmingham Mail
The video in that link isn't "watch as the flover is demolished", it's "watch a JCB move a couple of buckets of rubble into a truck".

"Watch as the flover is demolished" would require a timelapse camera and the patience to wait until the job is done.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by linuxrocks »

I wonder how long before they rebuild the flyover, when they find out the replacement roundabout doesn't work.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Bryn666 »

linuxrocks wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:28 I wonder how long before they rebuild the flyover, when they find out the replacement roundabout doesn't work.
Belgrave Road in Leicester hasn't been rebuilt, predictions of disaster were overstated there and they will be here too. The A34 is constrained by signal junctions either side here, so what exactly has been lost by removing an S2 flyover?
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by traffic-light-man »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:23
linuxrocks wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:28 I wonder how long before they rebuild the flyover, when they find out the replacement roundabout doesn't work.
Belgrave Road in Leicester hasn't been rebuilt, predictions of disaster were overstated there and they will be here too. The A34 is constrained by signal junctions either side here, so what exactly has been lost?
Similarly, the Churchill Way flyovers in Liverpool haven't needed replacing, even without any alterations to the existing road layout. Admittedly, there was less of a song and dance over the definite traffic chaos from most parties, it was mainly just the usual crowd that oppose any changes whatsoever.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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I think the wider issue is the precedence it sets that urban flyovers will just be removed at all costs, rather than replaced or improved as we have seen in Leicester and Chelmsford too. If this spread too London as well, hopefully the de-facto position will be to improve the current flyovers in place at the A12/A127, Hogarth etc rather than deliver at-grade solutions once these flyovers reach its end of life - which will be a disaster.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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thatapanydude wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 13:06 I think the wider issue is the precedence it sets that urban flyovers will just be removed at all costs, rather than replaced or improved as we have seen in Leicester and Chelmsford too. If this spread too London as well, hopefully the de-facto position will be to improve the current flyovers in place at the A12/A127, Hogarth etc rather than deliver at-grade solutions once these flyovers reach its end of life - which will be a disaster.
If TfL wanted to remove the flyovers at Hogarth and Gallows Corner they would have already done so, they've been life expired for at least a decade now and are being propped up at great expense when TfL can't afford to really do so.

I do wish all this motorist paranoia that "THEY TERK ARR FLYOVERS" would go away, it's unprovable nonsense. The flyovers that have been removed - with the exception of the Birmingham IRR - have all been isolated junctions that provide no wider network benefit and thus removal was seen as part of a wider regeneration aim to remove the dominance of a redundant piece of road infrastructure.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by ais523 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:23The A34 is constrained by signal junctions either side here
Only to the north. At least the last time I used that stretch of A34 (a couple of years ago now), it was freeflow for a noticeable distance to the south (but with a junction spacing so tight that the weaving was horrendous). Presumably this dates from the time when the A34 was expected to do the job that the A38(M) does now.

That said, although I haven't seen it in peak times, off-peak everything seemed to be flowing fairly freely and the flyover might well have not been necessary with the traffic patterns that were present at the time. (I'd imagine that the bottleneck to the north is the limiting factor at peak times, so the speed over the junction itself is less relevant.)
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Bryn666 »

ais523 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 18:16
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:23The A34 is constrained by signal junctions either side here
Only to the north. At least the last time I used that stretch of A34 (a couple of years ago now), it was freeflow for a noticeable distance to the south (but with a junction spacing so tight that the weaving was horrendous). Presumably this dates from the time when the A34 was expected to do the job that the A38(M) does now.

That said, although I haven't seen it in peak times, off-peak everything seemed to be flowing fairly freely and the flyover might well have not been necessary with the traffic patterns that were present at the time. (I'd imagine that the bottleneck to the north is the limiting factor at peak times, so the speed over the junction itself is less relevant.)
The S4 Birchfield Underpass is from 1962, the other flyovers around 1968 or so. The Aston Expressway was already on the cards as Truvelo has shown on the previous page of this thread :-)
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Bfivethousand »

Bryn666 wrote: The flyovers that have been removed - with the exception of the Birmingham IRR - have all been isolated junctions that provide no wider network benefit and thus removal was seen as part of a wider regeneration aim to remove the dominance of a redundant piece of road infrastructure.
Up to now even the Birmingham IRR changes have only seen one GSJ removed although of course the resultant regeneration works took in the old at-grade Bull Ring roundabout too. This may of course all be a temporary situation what with the possible plans for the tunnels.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by trickstat »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 13:10
thatapanydude wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 13:06 I think the wider issue is the precedence it sets that urban flyovers will just be removed at all costs, rather than replaced or improved as we have seen in Leicester and Chelmsford too. If this spread too London as well, hopefully the de-facto position will be to improve the current flyovers in place at the A12/A127, Hogarth etc rather than deliver at-grade solutions once these flyovers reach its end of life - which will be a disaster.
If TfL wanted to remove the flyovers at Hogarth and Gallows Corner they would have already done so, they've been life expired for at least a decade now and are being propped up at great expense when TfL can't afford to really do so.
Gallows Corner looked like a temporary structure to me as a small boy in the '70s when we were visiting relatives.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Chris5156 »

trickstat wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 18:35 Gallows Corner looked like a temporary structure to me as a small boy in the '70s when we were visiting relatives.
It was, and still is, but the permanent flyover scheme it was awaiting was cancelled by 1969 - possibly earlier. It was then temporary on a new basis, awaiting the bypassing of the A12 by the M12, a project that was cancelled in the 1970s. I'm not sure on what basis it could still be described as "temporary", except I suppose that it's been called temporary for more than half a century now so it's traditional :?
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