BBC: Birmingham road news

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c2R
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BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by c2R »

Double good news for car haters in Birmigham:

Cars could be banned from Birmingham road tunnels: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-50073546
Perry Barr flyover demolition plans approved by council: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-50071732
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Jeni »

Yay
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Bryn666 »

Not sold on closing the tunnels to traffic - but the Perry Barr S2 flyover is not a great loss.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by IAN »

It's not a Hogarth style 'temporary' flyover and assuming there are no structural problems I am totally unclear about the perceived advantages of demolishing it. It'll just create queues at a roundabout.

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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by KeithW »

So what is the real justification for this ?

I have seen the blurb from the council but its hard to accept that it is to reduce car ownership when it will serve an out of town shopping centre with a huge car park and a large new residential development. Reading between the lines it sounds more like plan to maximise the number of houses that can be built. As for improved public transport I have heard that one before. Any plan really should specifically detail the improvements to public transport instead of making vague promises such as 'the proposals could make Perry Barr the 'best connected suburb in Birmingham'

It is very convenient for planners to make vague promises but much less convenient for the people who have to live there when the improved public transport turns out to be one extra bus a day - except on Sundays. I remember the 1988 promised West Midlands tram network of 15 new lines. This was then cut back to 3 lines and in fact only one was built which uses the old Wolverhampton Low Level to Birmingham Snow Hill line. This is the rather underwhelming Wolverhampton Terminus
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5841436 ... 6656?hl=en

<Edited to add link to Council proposals>
https://www.birminghambeheard.org.uk/ec ... perrybarr/
81% of respondents do not support the proposed changes to the A34 Walsall Road/ A453 Aldridge Road junction layout as:
Some respondents felt there would be an incease in congestion as a result of removing the flyover; and
Some respondents felt there would be negative air quality impacts as a result of this proposed scheme.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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81% of respondents do not support the proposed changes to the A34 Walsall Road/ A453 Aldridge Road junction layout as:
Some respondents felt there would be an incease in congestion as a result of removing the flyover; and
Some respondents felt there would be negative air quality impacts as a result of this proposed scheme.
So what is the point of a consultation when a council ignores 81% against. It just goes to show that consultations for Local Authorities are a tick box exercise and they will totally ignore the outcome if it goes against there idea
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Micro The Maniac »

IAN wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 09:23 It's not a Hogarth style 'temporary' flyover and assuming there are no structural problems I am totally unclear about the perceived advantages of demolishing it. It'll just create queues at a roundabout.
Looking at the artist's impression, the roundabout goes too... it'll be a flat, traffic-light controlled, junction.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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A303Chris wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 13:11
81% of respondents do not support the proposed changes to the A34 Walsall Road/ A453 Aldridge Road junction layout as:
Some respondents felt there would be an incease in congestion as a result of removing the flyover; and
Some respondents felt there would be negative air quality impacts as a result of this proposed scheme.
So what is the point of a consultation when a council ignores 81% against. It just goes to show that consultations for Local Authorities are a tick box exercise and they will totally ignore the outcome if it goes against there idea
Birmingham CIty Council is notorious for this - they had a similar survey concerning the 20mph zones proposal, and the response came out against (not 81% against, but a clear margin). But we got them anyway.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by M19 »

I would invite BCC to undertake temporary closures, and then watch congestion rocket and air quality drop like a stone.

Still it will make the buses look much better as an option, as everyone will bin their car keys? And we'll all have unicorns.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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M19 wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 20:16 I would invite BCC to undertake temporary closures, and then watch congestion rocket and air quality drop like a stone.

Still it will make the buses look much better as an option, as everyone will bin their car keys? And we'll all have unicorns.
Exactly my thoughts. I'm absolutely not averse to attempts to clean up air quality, improve public transport and reduce car use where possible, but proposals like this just smack of a confused hotchpotch rather than any clear thought. As you say, closing specific tunnels will simply see traffic diverting to a different route, it will not prompt a sudden rush to use public transport. To properly tackle major issues such as air quality and climate change, you need central government to take a proper handle on it.

And I had to laugh at the idea mooted in the BBC article that cyclists could share the tunnels with buses and trams. As someone that cycles, I can assure you that the last place I'd want to be is in a tunnel with buses and trams. One of the joys of cycling, even if you're commuting, is to be out in the open, not in a tunnel.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Bryn666 »

danfw194 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:27
M19 wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 20:16 I would invite BCC to undertake temporary closures, and then watch congestion rocket and air quality drop like a stone.

Still it will make the buses look much better as an option, as everyone will bin their car keys? And we'll all have unicorns.
Exactly my thoughts. I'm absolutely not averse to attempts to clean up air quality, improve public transport and reduce car use where possible, but proposals like this just smack of a confused hotchpotch rather than any clear thought. As you say, closing specific tunnels will simply see traffic diverting to a different route, it will not prompt a sudden rush to use public transport. To properly tackle major issues such as air quality and climate change, you need central government to take a proper handle on it.

And I had to laugh at the idea mooted in the BBC article that cyclists could share the tunnels with buses and trams. As someone that cycles, I can assure you that the last place I'd want to be is in a tunnel with buses and trams. One of the joys of cycling, even if you're commuting, is to be out in the open, not in a tunnel.
A truly radical solution would be to build a massive park and ride near Spaghetti Junction and create an automated people mover that runs down the A38(M), through the tunnels, before curving around to terminate with the new HS2/New Street connections.

But that is beyond the wit of councillors.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Jeni »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 13:50 A truly radical solution would be to build a massive park and ride near Spaghetti Junction and create an automated people mover that runs down the A38(M), through the tunnels, before curving around to terminate with the new HS2/New Street connections.

But that is beyond the wit of councillors.
Install pay and display machines on the A38(M) problem solved!
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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IAN wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 09:23 It's not a Hogarth style 'temporary' flyover and assuming there are no structural problems I am totally unclear about the perceived advantages of demolishing it. It'll just create queues at a roundabout.

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The stated reason is that they're planning to close part of Aldridge Road to general traffic, which means they need to fit in a number of extra movements at the junction, and they don't think there's room to do so while retaining the flyover.

This seems to go a bit beyond the usual issue of "new development isn't attached correctly to the existing roads"!

The basic problem seems to be that they're trying to regenerate an area that, currently, is mostly used as a place to drive through rather than a destination (this is the main road from Birmingham to Walsall). The resulting development would be the sort of urban area that tends to naturally need a bypass, but there's nowhere to put it. Without one, the resulting area is going to end up as a nightmare (and might even reduce the amount of bus usage; the X51 is going to struggle to be an effective high-speed route between Birmingham and Walsall if it gets stuck somewhere like this – based on the stated plans, I don't think it can even reach the bus lane as it would require cutting across multiple lanes of traffic – so perhaps the plan is to benefit cyclists and the train at the cost of buses and cars).
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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ais523 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 15:02
IAN wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 09:23 It's not a Hogarth style 'temporary' flyover and assuming there are no structural problems I am totally unclear about the perceived advantages of demolishing it. It'll just create queues at a roundabout.

Ian (M5 Driver)
The stated reason is that they're planning to close part of Aldridge Road to general traffic, which means they need to fit in a number of extra movements at the junction, and they don't think there's room to do so while retaining the flyover.

This seems to go a bit beyond the usual issue of "new development isn't attached correctly to the existing roads"!

The basic problem seems to be that they're trying to regenerate an area that, currently, is mostly used as a place to drive through rather than a destination (this is the main road from Birmingham to Walsall). The resulting development would be the sort of urban area that tends to naturally need a bypass, but there's nowhere to put it. Without one, the resulting area is going to end up as a nightmare (and might even reduce the amount of bus usage; the X51 is going to struggle to be an effective high-speed route between Birmingham and Walsall if it gets stuck somewhere like this – based on the stated plans, I don't think it can even reach the bus lane as it would require cutting across multiple lanes of traffic – so perhaps the plan is to benefit cyclists and the train at the cost of buses and cars).
I can sort of see the benefits for cyclists, but how would the railway benefit? I doubt anyone would have the foresight to sort out improved services!
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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rhyds wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 09:38
ais523 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 15:02
IAN wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 09:23 It's not a Hogarth style 'temporary' flyover and assuming there are no structural problems I am totally unclear about the perceived advantages of demolishing it. It'll just create queues at a roundabout.

Ian (M5 Driver)
The stated reason is that they're planning to close part of Aldridge Road to general traffic, which means they need to fit in a number of extra movements at the junction, and they don't think there's room to do so while retaining the flyover.

This seems to go a bit beyond the usual issue of "new development isn't attached correctly to the existing roads"!

The basic problem seems to be that they're trying to regenerate an area that, currently, is mostly used as a place to drive through rather than a destination (this is the main road from Birmingham to Walsall). The resulting development would be the sort of urban area that tends to naturally need a bypass, but there's nowhere to put it. Without one, the resulting area is going to end up as a nightmare (and might even reduce the amount of bus usage; the X51 is going to struggle to be an effective high-speed route between Birmingham and Walsall if it gets stuck somewhere like this – based on the stated plans, I don't think it can even reach the bus lane as it would require cutting across multiple lanes of traffic – so perhaps the plan is to benefit cyclists and the train at the cost of buses and cars).
I can sort of see the benefits for cyclists, but how would the railway benefit? I doubt anyone would have the foresight to sort out improved services!
Perry Barr station has 2 tph during daytime in each direction. Increasing that to, say, 4 or 6, would depend on slotting services in between the Cross City Line trains, which are 6 tph each way at Aston, the first station after the Walsall-Birmingham and Cross City lines merge, and capacity at BNS might be an issue as well. But all of this is a side-issue to the road alteration plans.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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rhyds wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 09:38I can sort of see the benefits for cyclists, but how would the railway benefit? I doubt anyone would have the foresight to sort out improved services!
Presumably there'd be higher demand once the roads were snarled up. It could probably be provided by running longer trains on the Chase Line (at least the ones that turn around at Walsall, maybe even the ones that continue to Rugeley); it's been recently electrified, and yet most of the trains running there are still fairly short.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Alderpoint »

TFWM are planning to introduce "Sprint" routes - limited stop buses - on a number of routes, including up the A34 through Perry Barr.

https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/sprint/
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by Chris Bertram »

Alderpoint wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 15:01 TFWM are planning to introduce "Sprint" routes - limited stop buses - on a number of routes, including up the A34 through Perry Barr.

https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/sprint/
They've had these before - they've come and gone over time. There used to be a 900 that was limited stop between Birmingham and Stourbridge, no idea when that stopped. Best of luck to them with it.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

Post by RichardA35 »

According to the linked publicity, the "sprint" bus routes seem to be set to come with dedicated bus lanes so allowing the "group travel" alternative to be more enticing with the advantage of allowing cyclists to easily avoid the stationary car drivers.
If, in general, the car driving traveller feels there would be benefit in removing cyclists from the carriageway, they are suggested to seek out their democratically elected representative to see if there is an appetite to start the process to obtain a TRO to ban that class of traveller or vehicle from the main carriageway.
I would suggest that as the policy of the council is to promote public transport and cycling, there will be little enthusiasm for such a measure and the car traveller in the city would be better advised to seek a public transport/car share/cycling alternative.
Certainly in my forays into Birmingham over the last few years, I have avoided driving as much as possible and used the railway for long distance and walked from any temporary accommodation.
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Re: BBC: Birmingham road news

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RichardA35 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 15:44 I would suggest that as the policy of the council is to promote public transport and cycling, there will be little enthusiasm for such a measure and the car traveller in the city would be better advised to seek a public transport/car share/cycling alternative.
And if there isn't one? (very possible considering Brum's lack of light rail)
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