Most over-engineered piece of road?

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Berk
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by Berk »

jackal wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 19:57Let's say the M3 was congested and you 'only' averaged 60-65mph. Still that's better than you're going to average on the A33 route, which is mostly at a 40mph-60mph limit, not to mention the countless at-grade junctions, property frontages, farm accesses and other hazards likely to lower speed further.
I can’t deny all these things are individually true, but you’re making an assumption similar to Google - that they’re all equally true at the same time, and have an equal effect on journey times.

You cannot guarantee I would have to slow down or brake sharply at every property access; you don’t always meet someone wanting to turn in/turn right at every house or farm access.

I can’t comment about the limits because I’ve not driven down there. I would expect the villages, and some of the built-up stretches to be 40, and the rest 50-NSL.
And to repeat, the M3 is the most direct route between Winchester and J7, so to match journey times you'd actually need to average a higher speed on the B3047/A33/A30. This is simply not possible unless there's an incident on the M3.
Again, it’s taking a leaf out of Google’s book. Although I usually prefer to take the most direct route, sometimes Google doesn’t even recommend it (because it prefers a trunk road!!).

I certainly won’t drive more miles, unless it’s faster by time.

In any case, to enter the M3, I’d have to go either via Bar End, or Winnall. And we all know how bad Winnall is. 💀
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by someone »

From my non-local experience of heading home to London on those roads, I endorse what Jonathan404 says. I have never had to slow for hazards on the A33, it is that quiet. I rarely go through M3 J8 without it being at a crawl. And the latter also includes when approaching from the A303 too.

If the M3 is crawling as I approach Winchester, and most of the traffic seems to be staying on at J9, I will leave there and use the A33 to J7.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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Johnathan404 wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 20:14
jackal wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 19:57 Let's say the M4 was congested and you 'only' averaged 60-65mph. Still that's better than you're going to average on the A33 route, which has 40mph, 50mph, and 60mph sections, not to mention countless at-grade junctions, property frontages, farm accesses and other hazards likely to take your speed below the limit.

And to repeat, the M3 is more direct, so to match journey times you'd actually need to average a higher average speed on the B3047/A33/A30, which is barely possible unless there's an incident on the M3.
Sounds like you're not very familiar with the road! There is generally no reason to dip below the speed limit other than over the crests of one or two of the hills. Of course many people will be travelling well above the speed limit from Kings Worthy to Dummer, and while you could do the same on the M3, it would be more of an effort.

When this all started I was only recounting how my former colleagues used to get to work. I caught the train at the time so it made no odds to me. I have now checked Google Maps and from the Andover Road junction, which is a difficult junction to avoid if you're in any part of Winchester other than the east, the A33 is 0.1 miles shorter and 2 minutes longer than the M3. That is better than I was expecting for 8pm when traffic is light and Winnall is flowing well, and nothing like the disparity you had me believe.

If you move it to near Abbott's Barton, which is the area I was actually talking about when you doubted me (our office parking being on Courtenay Road), then the A33 route becomes 2.1 miles shorter and 0 minutes longer than the M3 route, according to Google, assuming no traffic. This difference remains the same if you move the marker all along Worthy Road, including in the estates and into the big city centre car park on Worthy Lane. So I'm not sure exactly what is so hard to believe about my former colleagues' choice of route.

So to take it all back a bit no it is not hard to believe that somebody heading to North Waltham would use the A33 and not the M3, even if there was another exit from the M3.
I was responding to this: "For the northern half of Winchester it is quicker to use M3 J7 to go north than it is to use any other junction". Certainly it is further to go to M3 J7 via A33 than M3, and slower.

I never doubted what your colleagues did (people can do anything after all). I doubted that it was the quickest way of getting to J7.

If we instead talk about North Waltham (which I was initially, before I responded to your comment, so I see how we've ended up there) then I can well believe that journey times on the two routes might be equal from northern Winchester, and haven't ever doubted that.

Hope that clarifies things.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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someone wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 21:24 From my non-local experience of heading home to London on those roads, I endorse what Jonathan404 says. I have never had to slow for hazards on the A33, it is that quiet. I rarely go through M3 J8 without it being at a crawl. And the latter also includes when approaching from the A303 too.

If the M3 is crawling as I approach Winchester, and most of the traffic seems to be staying on at J9, I will leave there and use the A33 to J7.
What people call a crawl on a motorway is often 60-65mph though. It may be more pleasant to use the A33 to get to J7 but it is certainly far, far slower:

Option 1. Direct route at constant 60-65mph on motorway mainline.
Option 2. Circuitous route that involves getting off at J9, fight the traffic through there, go along the various speed limits (mostly 40-60mph) on the A33/A30, turn right at a T-junction almost doubling back on yourself and then left at J7 roundabout to rejoin M3.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by owen b »

jackal wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 21:46 I was responding to this: "For the northern half of Winchester it is quicker to use M3 J7 to go north than it is to use any other junction". Certainly it is further to go to M3 J7 via A33 than M3, and slower.
I've played around with Google Maps and for most of Winchester west, north west or north of the centre the A33 to J7 is the shorter route, because heading out to J9 involves extra distance either heading east through the centre or double backing onto the A33 then A34 southbound at Kings Worthy, either of which is a bigger dogleg (in distance terms) than the right and left to get onto the M3 northbound at J7. From close to the centre the difference is extremely marginal. From further north west or north out of the centre the difference increases in favour of the A33. Go to the NW outer edge of Winchester and Google Maps suggests heading up the A34 to Bullington Cross. Which route is in practice quickest no doubt depends on time of day, time of year, driving style etc. My limited personal experience (mainly at weekends) is that M3 J8-9 is frequently slow with bunching of traffic in lane two, and that J9 and access to the city centre from that side is slow and busy. It's been a while since I used the A33 as I'm usually heading to/from the east side of Winchester, but from memory north of King's Worthy it's virtually all NSL S2 and D2 and on a very good alignment.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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jackal wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 22:01What people call a crawl on a motorway is often 60-65mph though.
Is it? Crikey! Well what I call a crawl on such a road are speeds up to 30 mph.
jackal wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 22:01It may be more pleasant to use the A33 to get to J7 but it is certainly far, far slower
That is most certainly not true. I am sure it will not always quicker, but it has never been far, far slower. If it were the arrival time estimate on my G.P.S. would go up significantly.

And I do not want to get myself in trouble with the police, but I am sure the dual carriageway sections of the A33 are faster than 60mph.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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someone wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 23:35 And I do not want to get myself in trouble with the police, but I am sure the dual carriageway sections of the A33 are faster than 60mph.
The DC sections are mostly NSL (70mph). But the problem is that most of the relevant (Winchester to J7) A33/A30 is not dual carriageway and/or is below NSL. The southern end is a mixture of 40 and 50mph, the eastern end 50mph, and lots of 60mph in between.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by Berk »

You cannot always floor it on a motorway/expressway. On my commute, I regularly encounter lorries (which, of course are restricted to 50/60), and often many car drivers who limit themselves to the same speed.

And you’ll often see elephant racing, sometimes with two cars, instead of lorries.

It is also often unsafe to overtake, so my progress is occasionally restricted despite having a “good quality” road to drive on.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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jackal wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 01:57 The DC sections are mostly NSL (70mph). But the problem is that most of the relevant (Winchester to J7) A33/A30 is not dual carriageway and/or is below NSL. The southern end is a mixture of 40 and 50mph, the eastern end 50mph, and lots of 60mph in between.
You are quick to mention this but reluctant to mention the 20mph speed limit on Wales Street and all around the ring road, which is surely more impactful.

This thread has made it clear to me that those who have used the road think the journey time is the same, Google Maps says it is exactly the same, but those who haven't used the road say it can't be.
jackal wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 22:01
someone wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 21:24 From my non-local experience of heading home to London on those roads, I endorse what Jonathan404 says. I have never had to slow for hazards on the A33, it is that quiet. I rarely go through M3 J8 without it being at a crawl. And the latter also includes when approaching from the A303 too.

If the M3 is crawling as I approach Winchester, and most of the traffic seems to be staying on at J9, I will leave there and use the A33 to J7.
What people call a crawl on a motorway is often 60-65mph though. It may be more pleasant to use the A33 to get to J7 but it is certainly far, far slower:

Option 1. Direct route at constant 60-65mph on motorway mainline.
Option 2. Circuitous route that involves getting off at J9, fight the traffic through there, go along the various speed limits (mostly 40-60mph) on the A33/A30, turn right at a T-junction almost doubling back on yourself and then left at J7 roundabout to rejoin M3.
Given that during the summer the M3 is stationary (I'm not sure where "constant 60-65mph" has come from?!) for several miles southbound approaching J9, using the A33 does offer a significant time saving, as you're only left with a short length of queue along the A34. If you're heading into Winchester City Centre then the time saving is much greater, because the delays at Andover Road are nothing in comparison, and the left turn filter means you can get through the junction very quickly. Another example of J7 being the better exit for many people in Winchester.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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What about Junction 4 of the M27 (M3 J14). Maybe not now but at any time did this feel over--engineered? Maybe before the M27 was finished or before the M3?
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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The A256 dual carriageway sections north of Whitfield. Apart from a very tiny bit of A2, it doesn’t even connect to any other bits of dual carriageway. And it is not as busy as, say, the A2 around Dover which remains a single carriageway.....
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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The entirety of the ring road around Andover. Only after 2008, some of the roundabouts started to reach capacity, or were modified due to new developments. Even at rush hour, there is little waiting at roundabouts with traffic lights. Also there is signs of future planning when the first sections were built in the 60s, when the Andover Bypass (A303) was built. Over the A3093 (Churchill Way) there is a pedestrian bridge which extends into the hill, enough room for a D2?
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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Moore_O wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 16:22I used to wonder if the M20 needed to be as wide as it is. I regularly commuted from Maidstone to Ashford, and going in that direction (East in the morning, West in the evening) it was almost like having my own personal motorway. Obviously I now know the very good reason why it's that wide - so it can double as a lorry park.
Having lived alongside it for a few years, I'm fairly sure J8-J9 was built with two carriageways in either direction with room for the third, then subsequently widened?

When I used to commute to Swanley in the early 2000s, I always thought the Maidstone bypass was over-engineered, after it had the separated slip roads added. Having driven it for the first time in ages earlier this year, it seems to need widening again!
Moore_O wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:28 You've reminded me of a drive I did earlier in the year between Dundee and Aberdeen, between 8 and 10pm one Saturday night. The A90 - beautiful straight D2 with 50mph average speed cameras all along it, and we had it virtually to ourselves. Occasionally someone would slowly catch and overtake us. Occasionally we would slowly catch and overtake someone else. And then we got to the brand new Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route!

I'm sure it's busy some of the time, but coming from South East England (and having travelled up most of the A1 the previous day), it was almost eerie how much room there was. Contrasted with 9pm on a Saturday night on the M25...
The A90 average speed cameras are 70mph, not 50mph.

Having bailed out of Kent, the A90 has been my local 'main road' for the past 15 years and I love it, even with the average speed cameras. It's actually better, because you no longer get morons helling along between the fixed speed cameras and then abruptly chucking out the anchors at each one. Or, even worse, when they weren't paying attention and only saw the mobile speed van in a layby when it was 15 feet in front of them. The only real down side is the many at-grade junctions and farm crossings. You have to keep your wits about you for them.

My neighbours sometimes call the A90 'busy', which I have to chuckle about. I respond that, as a southerner, I know what 'busy' is! The other side of the coin is when southern friends and family grumble about having to drive for 15 minutes to get to the likes of B&Q. For me it's a two hour round trip.

Swings & roundabouts... :)
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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Alderpoint wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 15:13 A470 in South Wales past Aberfan. You can't tell to look at it but they put an enormous amount of effort into ensuring the road would never ever slide down into the village.
Isn't the A470 a bit of a vanity project anyway, most of it is very high standard S2, but when they have built new alignments they haven't bothered to add crawler or overtaking lanes so all the effort is for nothing because if you're stuck behind a lorry you're going to be behind it for a long time.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by Alderpoint »

ajuk wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 21:54
Alderpoint wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 15:13 A470 in South Wales past Aberfan. You can't tell to look at it but they put an enormous amount of effort into ensuring the road would never ever slide down into the village.
Isn't the A470 a bit of a vanity project anyway, most of it is very high standard S2, but when they have built new alignments they haven't bothered to add crawler or overtaking lanes so all the effort is for nothing because if you're stuck behind a lorry you're going to be behind it for a long time.
The section of the A470 in South Wales to which I was referring to (i.e. that past Aberfan) is D2 all the way from Cardiff to Merthyr.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by Herned »

ajuk wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 21:54
Isn't the A470 a bit of a vanity project anyway, most of it is very high standard S2, but when they have built new alignments they haven't bothered to add crawler or overtaking lanes so all the effort is for nothing because if you're stuck behind a lorry you're going to be behind it for a long time.
Most? I doubt more than a quarter of it could be considered high standard, with maybe another quarter improved a bit. Lots of it is terrible
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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Bertiebus wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 20:07 The A90 average speed cameras are 70mph, not 50mph.

Having bailed out of Kent, the A90 has been my local 'main road' for the past 15 years and I love it, even with the average speed cameras. It's actually better, because you no longer get morons helling along between the fixed speed cameras and then abruptly chucking out the anchors at each one. Or, even worse, when they weren't paying attention and only saw the mobile speed van in a layby when it was 15 feet in front of them. The only real down side is the many at-grade junctions and farm crossings. You have to keep your wits about you for them.

My neighbours sometimes call the A90 'busy', which I have to chuckle about. I respond that, as a southerner, I know what 'busy' is! The other side of the coin is when southern friends and family grumble about having to drive for 15 minutes to get to the likes of B&Q. For me it's a two hour round trip.

Swings & roundabouts... :)
I know what you mean - getting used to the scarcity of filling stations can lead to quite a lot of stress driving around rural Scotland, if you've come from South East England.

Can you answer a question which intrigued me about the A90 from when we drove along it (at whatever the speed limit was!): why do all the laybys have 15' chain link fences at the back of them?
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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Moore_O wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:55 I know what you mean - getting used to the scarcity of filling stations can lead to quite a lot of stress driving around rural Scotland, if you've come from South East England.
Yes, it is useful to know where the filling stations are just off the main routes and what times they're open. On the flip side, it's great that superstores here are open 24/7 (apart from Christmas Day, 1st Jan, etc). This is something I always forget when I do the odd trip south and need to get something at 5pm on a Sunday :x

Ths biggest irony is that here I'm actually closer to more cities and international airports than I was when living in the south east.
Moore_O wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:55 Can you answer a question which intrigued me about the A90 from when we drove along it (at whatever the speed limit was!): why do all the laybys have 15' chain link fences at the back of them?
To be honest I don't know, the only thing I've noticed it's useful for is stopping litter blowing into the fields. It certainly does nothing to prevent the coaches of Premiership football fans from emptying themselves of Tennants... :roll:
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

Post by Moore_O »

Yeah - supermarkets not shutting at 4pm on Sundays was a bit of a shock.

The mystery layby fences - we also thought they were to stop rubbish being blown into fields, but only in the absence of a better idea.
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Re: Most over-engineered piece of road?

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rhyds wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 15:51 A470/A40 Aberhonddu / Brecon bypass. Its probably the lowest spec D2 Trunk road you can find (it doesn't even have central crash barriers!) but its massively over-engineered compared to the rest of Mid Wales' trunk network
It has a central reservation barrier now! .... or at least for the middle part of it...installed in the last month
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