Guided Busways

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roadtester
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by roadtester »

KeithW wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 17:28
roadtester wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:15
I see part of the plan is to build an electric arc furnace.

I don't know much about steel-making but if I remember correctly when Tata wanted to go over to electric arc furnaces in South Wales, there were lots of objections that it would mean the end of "proper" steel-making there because you can only feed these furnaces with scrap, losing full end-to-end steel-making capability. I doubt anyone will be remotely quibbling on that score if some genuine new jobs can be created here though.
That is basically true but you can also use pig iron or molten iron from a blast furnace. In the case of the SSI site there was only 1 blast furnace and it was several miles from the rolling mills. Something like 85% of steel is recycled so you dont need a blast furnace if there is a good supply of scrap steel and iron. Both the Blast Furnace and old Basic Oxygen Converter where life expired in any case. There is a real risk the Coke Ovens which date back to the 1960's will actually collapse releasing all sorts of nasties.
I'm guessing that in a mature industrial country like the UK that has been making and using vast amounts of steel for hundreds of years, there's going to be plenty of scrap around, so being restricted to scrap would probably not be that much of a limitation anyway.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by KeithW »

roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 17:48
KeithW wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 17:28
roadtester wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:15
I see part of the plan is to build an electric arc furnace.

I don't know much about steel-making but if I remember correctly when Tata wanted to go over to electric arc furnaces in South Wales, there were lots of objections that it would mean the end of "proper" steel-making there because you can only feed these furnaces with scrap, losing full end-to-end steel-making capability. I doubt anyone will be remotely quibbling on that score if some genuine new jobs can be created here though.
That is basically true but you can also use pig iron or molten iron from a blast furnace. In the case of the SSI site there was only 1 blast furnace and it was several miles from the rolling mills. Something like 85% of steel is recycled so you dont need a blast furnace if there is a good supply of scrap steel and iron. Both the Blast Furnace and old Basic Oxygen Converter where life expired in any case. There is a real risk the Coke Ovens which date back to the 1960's will actually collapse releasing all sorts of nasties.
I'm guessing that in a mature industrial country like the UK that has been making and using vast amounts of steel for hundreds of years, there's going to be plenty of scrap around, so being restricted to scrap would probably not be that much of a limitation anyway.

The capital costs are also much lower. Scrap was always recycled but in the past this was done by feeding it into the blast furnace which produced molten iron that had to be fed into a converter or open hearth furnace which produced a lot of pollution mostly in the form of ferrous oxides which left a layer of red dust everywhere downwind.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by camflyer »

roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 17:31
camflyer wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 16:45 Consultation for the Cambridge Automated Metro has been launched:

https://cam.consultationonline.co.uk/pu ... sultation/

There is no doubt that something needs to be done about public transport in and around Cambridge but I'm yet to be convinced that CAM is the right solution.
Interesting. I've always thought it was a slightly barmy idea but the route map looks very sensible.

It addresses one-side-of-Cambridge-to-the-other journeys, which are a particular problem with the local roads/traffic situation, especially getting down to the Addenbrookes campus.

At the moment, the guided busway doesn't quite work for that because it has to use city streets in central Cambridge, and there isn't proper through running because of differences in clearances between the northern/western and southern bits.

I'm slightly disappointed to see it only reaching Waterbeach rather than Ely to the North when it extends much further out in other directions.
Well, I suppose Ely already has a decent rail link into Cambridge.

After looking at the proposal, I may be warming to it. Tunnelling, while expensive, is definitely the right thing to do (though someone is bound to object) as it's the only way of avoiding the city centre traffic.
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Re: Guided Busways

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camflyer wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:18
roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 17:31
camflyer wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 16:45 Consultation for the Cambridge Automated Metro has been launched:

https://cam.consultationonline.co.uk/pu ... sultation/

There is no doubt that something needs to be done about public transport in and around Cambridge but I'm yet to be convinced that CAM is the right solution.
Interesting. I've always thought it was a slightly barmy idea but the route map looks very sensible.

It addresses one-side-of-Cambridge-to-the-other journeys, which are a particular problem with the local roads/traffic situation, especially getting down to the Addenbrookes campus.

At the moment, the guided busway doesn't quite work for that because it has to use city streets in central Cambridge, and there isn't proper through running because of differences in clearances between the northern/western and southern bits.

I'm slightly disappointed to see it only reaching Waterbeach rather than Ely to the North when it extends much further out in other directions.
Well, I suppose Ely already has a decent rail link into Cambridge.

After looking at the proposal, I may be warming to it. Tunnelling, while expensive, is definitely the right thing to do (though someone is bound to object) as it's the only way of avoiding the city centre traffic.
Well the thing that made me think of Ely (apart from living there) was that I was assuming it might at least in part be relying on existing rail, possibly using tram/train tech, to reach some of the outlying destinations.
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Re: Guided Busways

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camflyer wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:18 ...
After looking at the proposal, I may be warming to it. Tunnelling, while expensive, is definitely the right thing to do (though someone is bound to object) as it's the only way of avoiding the city centre traffic.
Isn't the point to reduce city centre traffic?
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Tunnelling? With the water table in this area. Can a tram convert into a submarine? Better to continue trying to drive cars out of the centre.

There is no doubt that, day-to-day, the Guided Busway vehicles (and buses in general inside Cambridge) are hamstrung by local traffic congestion.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by the cheesecake man »

A very interesting and ambitious plan.

There's no room on the narrow city streets and the demolition required to make it fit would be unacceptable on many levels.

Tunneling sounds challenging but similar difficulties have been overcome elsewhere.

Is the Huntingdon line intended to take over the guided busway?

The area between Waterbeach and Ely is so empty it's probably not worthwhile duplicating the existing train service.

And it complies with the local bye law that everything has to use the abbreviation or acronym CAM!
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by KeithW »

camflyer wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:18 Well, I suppose Ely already has a decent rail link into Cambridge.

After looking at the proposal, I may be warming to it. Tunnelling, while expensive, is definitely the right thing to do (though someone is bound to object) as it's the only way of avoiding the city centre traffic.
I am distinctly unimpressed. Looking at the 'information' I see no nothing but a wish list with absolutely none of the basic data needed. The locations of the portals are undefined, there is no reference to the costs, no backing data on local geology or water table and they have not even identified a location for the central station. Then there is the little matter of under pinning all the grade 1 listed buildings they will be tunneling under.

Essentially it boils down to 'give me an unlimited budget and I will probably build you some sort of metro.'

Pshaw !
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by Jeni »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 21:18 Tunnelling? With the water table in this area. Can a tram convert into a submarine? Better to continue trying to drive cars out of the centre.
I'm sure that engineers with plenty of experience will offer solutions when they're designing it.
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Re: Guided Busways

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mikehindsonevans wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 21:18 Tunnelling? With the water table in this area. Can a tram convert into a submarine? Better to continue trying to drive cars out of the centre.

There is no doubt that, day-to-day, the Guided Busway vehicles (and buses in general inside Cambridge) are hamstrung by local traffic congestion.
I can't see any realistic alternative to a tunnel under the central area. You won't remove cars until there is a reliable alternative. I'd love to see the centre of Cambridge car-free just like many similar sized small cities in Europe have achieved bug I don't think Cambridge's narrow streets are suitable for a ground-level metro system.

Anyway, it's going to take at least 10 years so there is plenty of opportunities in the meantime to consider shorter term solutions.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by Berk »

Again, what’s wrong with a guided bus extension?? Or light rail?? *cough cough* :!:

Modal shift is based in a presumption of reducing private motor traffic anyway, so there shouldn’t be a problem extending the system, even into the historic city centre.

Something you can’t really do with a metro, or heavy rail system.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by camflyer »

Berk wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 23:34 Again, what’s wrong with a guided bus extension?? Or light rail?? *cough cough* :!:

Modal shift is based in a presumption of reducing private motor traffic anyway, so there shouldn’t be a problem extending the system, even into the historic city centre.

Something you can’t really do with a metro, or heavy rail system.
If there wasn't a problem extending the Guided Busway into the centre then why isn't it being proposed. Surely it would be cheaper and quicker than a tunnel.

The trouble is that a GBW needs dedicated lanes but there isn't the road space available in Cambridge which lacks continental style wide boulevards. Where those are available the system works fine but as soon as it mixes with other traffic, everything grinds to a halt. Currently the Cambridge GBW is just a great way of getting to the city's congestion quicker.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by KeithW »

camflyer wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:12
Berk wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 23:34 Again, what’s wrong with a guided bus extension?? Or light rail?? *cough cough* :!:

Modal shift is based in a presumption of reducing private motor traffic anyway, so there shouldn’t be a problem extending the system, even into the historic city centre.

Something you can’t really do with a metro, or heavy rail system.
If there wasn't a problem extending the Guided Busway into the centre then why isn't it being proposed. Surely it would be cheaper and quicker than a tunnel.

The trouble is that a GBW needs dedicated lanes but there isn't the road space available in Cambridge which lacks continental style wide boulevards. Where those are available the system works fine but as soon as it mixes with other traffic, everything grinds to a halt. Currently the Cambridge GBW is just a great way of getting to the city's congestion quicker.
I dont think you need another guided busway. Its a good solution for what the Americans call an interurban route but not for travel into the city centre.

Cambridge has a decent provision of Park and Ride sites and relatively small historic centre that can be walked from one end to the other in 20 minutes. Reduce private traffic into the city centre and you could use hybrid or electric buses from the Park and Ride sites as well as circular service around a route from Elizabeth Way to Parkers Piece, Dr , along East Road the Fen Causeway, along the backs and back round the Ring Road to Elizabeth Way. You can walk from the backs into the historic centre in minutes which is what most tourists do.

Similar systems have been established elsewhere and that is what other British cities such as York are doing. No grandiose billion pound scheme is needed or justified, just the political will to do it and a few bus lanes.
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Re: Guided Busways

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KeithW wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:34
camflyer wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:12
Berk wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 23:34 Again, what’s wrong with a guided bus extension?? Or light rail?? *cough cough* :!:

Modal shift is based in a presumption of reducing private motor traffic anyway, so there shouldn’t be a problem extending the system, even into the historic city centre.

Something you can’t really do with a metro, or heavy rail system.
If there wasn't a problem extending the Guided Busway into the centre then why isn't it being proposed. Surely it would be cheaper and quicker than a tunnel.

The trouble is that a GBW needs dedicated lanes but there isn't the road space available in Cambridge which lacks continental style wide boulevards. Where those are available the system works fine but as soon as it mixes with other traffic, everything grinds to a halt. Currently the Cambridge GBW is just a great way of getting to the city's congestion quicker.
I dont think you need another guided busway. Its a good solution for what the Americans call an interurban route but not for travel into the city centre.

Cambridge has a decent provision of Park and Ride sites and relatively small historic centre that can be walked from one end to the other in 20 minutes. Reduce private traffic into the city centre and you could use hybrid or electric buses from the Park and Ride sites as well as circular service around a route from Elizabeth Way to Parkers Piece, Dr , along East Road the Fen Causeway, along the backs and back round the Ring Road to Elizabeth Way. You can walk from the backs into the historic centre in minutes which is what most tourists do.

Similar systems have been established elsewhere and that is what other British cities such as York are doing. No grandiose billion pound scheme is needed or justified, just the political will to do it and a few bus lanes.
I don't necessarily disagree with most of that but I think locals would say there is a particular problem about accessing Addenbrookes, which has an importance way beyond that of a normal local hospital in terms of visitor numbers and so on, especially from the 'wrong' side of Cambridge. Things have improved somewhat with the opening up of road access from the M11 side and there is the prospect of a Cambridge South/Addenbrookes station as well. But it's still going to be a pain for a lot of people relying on public transport coming from the North/West/East. That can't really be improved without some form of transport that can get across the centre of Cambridge while avoiding traffic jams, perhaps along the lines proposed by the admittedly slightly barmy mayor. The more I think about it, the more his skeleton route layout makes sense.
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Re: Guided Busways

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roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:27Well the thing that made me think of Ely (apart from living there) was that I was assuming it might at least in part be relying on existing rail, possibly using tram/train tech, to reach some of the outlying destinations.
The proposal is not a rail based system but a form of guided busway.

Instead of physically steering a bus using a guide wheel, as the current system does, the CAM instead will use cameras to follow a visual track on the road to drive itself, the autonomous part. So although it uses tram-style vehicles, they will have ordinary road wheels and so cannot use rail infrastructure.

Although they could share ordinary roads with other vehicles, they just need the appropriate markings on the road to follow, the plan for this network is for it to be entirely segregated. This obviously allows it to be faster and safer. Although it will be able to use the existing and proposed (physical) guided busways.
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Re: Guided Busways

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someone wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:57
roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:27Well the thing that made me think of Ely (apart from living there) was that I was assuming it might at least in part be relying on existing rail, possibly using tram/train tech, to reach some of the outlying destinations.
The proposal is not a rail based system but a form of guided busway.

Instead of physically steering a bus using a guide wheel, as the current system does, the CAM instead will use cameras to follow a visual track on the road to drive itself, the autonomous part. So although it uses tram-style vehicles, they will have ordinary road wheels and so cannot use rail infrastructure.

Although they could share ordinary roads with other vehicles, they just need the appropriate markings on the road to follow, the plan for this network is for it to be entirely segregated. This obviously allows it to be faster and safer. Although it will be able to use the existing and proposed (physical) guided busways.
Interesting - would this be the first of its type or is there a similar autonomous/part autonomous system running anywhere else already?
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by KeithW »

someone wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:57
roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:27Well the thing that made me think of Ely (apart from living there) was that I was assuming it might at least in part be relying on existing rail, possibly using tram/train tech, to reach some of the outlying destinations.
The proposal is not a rail based system but a form of guided busway.

Instead of physically steering a bus using a guide wheel, as the current system does, the CAM instead will use cameras to follow a visual track on the road to drive itself, the autonomous part. So although it uses tram-style vehicles, they will have ordinary road wheels and so cannot use rail infrastructure.

Although they could share ordinary roads with other vehicles, they just need the appropriate markings on the road to follow, the plan for this network is for it to be entirely segregated. This obviously allows it to be faster and safer. Although it will be able to use the existing and proposed (physical) guided busways.

I will give an old adage - simple is best. Road markings fade, are scuffed out and obscured by snow and heavy rain. My car has an active lane guidance system. I wouldnt trust it as far as the end of my street.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by roadtester »

KeithW wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:18
someone wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:57
roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:27Well the thing that made me think of Ely (apart from living there) was that I was assuming it might at least in part be relying on existing rail, possibly using tram/train tech, to reach some of the outlying destinations.
The proposal is not a rail based system but a form of guided busway.

Instead of physically steering a bus using a guide wheel, as the current system does, the CAM instead will use cameras to follow a visual track on the road to drive itself, the autonomous part. So although it uses tram-style vehicles, they will have ordinary road wheels and so cannot use rail infrastructure.

Although they could share ordinary roads with other vehicles, they just need the appropriate markings on the road to follow, the plan for this network is for it to be entirely segregated. This obviously allows it to be faster and safer. Although it will be able to use the existing and proposed (physical) guided busways.

I will give an old adage - simple is best. Road markings fade, are scuffed out and obscured by snow and heavy rain. My car has an active lane guidance system. I wouldnt trust it as far as the end of my street.
Much easier if it's a closed system, though.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by mikehindsonevans »

roadtester wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:25
KeithW wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:18
someone wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:57

The proposal is not a rail based system but a form of guided busway.

Instead of physically steering a bus using a guide wheel, as the current system does, the CAM instead will use cameras to follow a visual track on the road to drive itself, the autonomous part. So although it uses tram-style vehicles, they will have ordinary road wheels and so cannot use rail infrastructure.

Although they could share ordinary roads with other vehicles, they just need the appropriate markings on the road to follow, the plan for this network is for it to be entirely segregated. This obviously allows it to be faster and safer. Although it will be able to use the existing and proposed (physical) guided busways.

I will give an old adage - simple is best. Road markings fade, are scuffed out and obscured by snow and heavy rain. My car has an active lane guidance system. I wouldnt trust it as far as the end of my street.
Much easier if it's a closed system, though.
Which brings us, sadly, right round and back to the lack of road space within Cambridge, inside the reach of the excellent Guided Busway.
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Re: Guided Busways

Post by FleetlinePhil »

roadtester wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:09
someone wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:57
roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 19:27Well the thing that made me think of Ely (apart from living there) was that I was assuming it might at least in part be relying on existing rail, possibly using tram/train tech, to reach some of the outlying destinations.
The proposal is not a rail based system but a form of guided busway.

Instead of physically steering a bus using a guide wheel, as the current system does, the CAM instead will use cameras to follow a visual track on the road to drive itself, the autonomous part. So although it uses tram-style vehicles, they will have ordinary road wheels and so cannot use rail infrastructure.

Although they could share ordinary roads with other vehicles, they just need the appropriate markings on the road to follow, the plan for this network is for it to be entirely segregated. This obviously allows it to be faster and safer. Although it will be able to use the existing and proposed (physical) guided busways.
Interesting - would this be the first of its type or is there a similar autonomous/part autonomous system running anywhere else already?
Wikipedia suggests there is limited use of optical guidance in Rouen and Nîmes. The French have been quite enthusiastic about blurring the boundaries between bus and tram, with varying degrees of reliabilty. The system I went on in Nancy uses a single guide rail embedded in the road to achieve the same effect, and there are quite a few similar systems around. The vehicles do give something of the ambience of a tram it has to be said. Metz, on the other hand, had simply converted its main bus routes to unguided artics of a similar size. I certainly remain to be convinced that such large vehicles would be welcomed on the streets of Cambridge!
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