Completed Dec. 2021: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

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Truvelo
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Truvelo »

DB617 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 00:53
Truvelo wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 00:49 Are you sure it wasn't originally NSL? I don't recall the 50 limit being there twenty years ago.
I'm actually not certain. It was just an assertion made on the old road in the article. It would make sense for the S2+1 to have originally been NSL on the basis of it being a major route and very little else taken into account. Is there a resource to look up historic speed limits?
There will be an order or statutory instrument somewhere. Probably online or at an archive.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by AAndy »

It was NSL, and NSL all the way from Abergavenny to Hirwaun, on all the 2+1, which was most of it right up to the time the construction began at Dowlais top.

The 50mph is alright. It is safer now and has more capacity I rekon.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by fras »

Is there a reason why 60 mph is never used ?
I presume 50 mph is not guesswork, but comes out of an app where the road parameters are keyed in and a speed limit pops out. In which case who produced the algorithm ?

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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

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I just can't get worked up about this stuff.

A fantastic new road is being built to a very high standard through difficult terrain and engineering/value trade-offs mean a bit of it is a 50. So what? It's still a fantastic upgrade and the overall improvement of the route will still make for a way better experience and far better journey times. Even where a new DC 50 replaces the old S2/S3 50s, progress is still probably going to be quicker.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Bryn666 »

roadtester wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 09:15 I just can't get worked up about this stuff.

A fantastic new road is being built to a very high standard through difficult terrain and engineering/value trade-offs mean a bit of it is a 50. So what? It's still a fantastic upgrade and the overall improvement of the route will still make for a way better experience and far better journey times. Even where a new DC 50 replaces the old S2/S3 50s, progress is still probably going to be quicker.
For reference, the N205 climbing up to Mont Blanc is only 90km/h as well. Fast roads and mountains aren't really related.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by DB617 »

I assume the Air Balloon scheme is going to struggle to achieve NSL as well due to gradient and sight lines plus the weird lane merging arrangement - which seems like Gordano with a compact GSJ thrown in for good measure.

I agree totally with roadtester. The scheme definitely provides a much better drive and is value for the significant investment. There's a lot more to a HQDC link than just fast journeys.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by roadtester »

TBH, I'm much more worried about the possibility that they'll decide not to do all of the HotV than I am about whether there might be a bit of 50.

I know it's supposed to be protected under the most recent scaling back of road spending in Wales, but it's an expensive and difficult project - the temptation not to see it all the way through must be there, I'd have thought.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Truvelo »

AAndy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 05:45 It was NSL, and NSL all the way from Abergavenny to Hirwaun, on all the 2+1, which was most of it right up to the time the construction began at Dowlais top.
Thanks for confirming this. I think it was in the early 2000's when the speed limit between Brynmawr and the Lion Hotel was reduced.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by rhyds »

I had a quick look at the BBC Cymru online article, and they had a quote from the director of the Institute of Civil Engineers Wales who pointed out that the 50 limit was due to a combination of short sliproads and poor sightlines, and also mentioned "air quality" as a reason.

Now I can understand posting a 50 limit on a lower standard bit of road even if it happens to be brand spanking new, however I still believe that using speed limits for anything other than safety considerations is wrong. It erodes confidence that speed limits, however low, are set with a safety rationale in mind and makes it clear that political/non safety issues are being considered, which is not a tenable position.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by RichardA35 »

For speed limits and alignments - if it were simple, retired folk or anyone off the street could be hired to do this work with a mobile phone app. However, the reality is rather more complex and actually needs experts and professionals to provide the assurance that the scheme has been appropriately designed.
The speed limit will have been determined at a very early stage as this is based on the design speed that is considered appropriate for the scheme. The consideration includes value for money - a scheme alignment will be initially designed to have no reductions (departures) from standards and the effect of this evaluated on construction cost - tunnels, viaducts, earthworks etc reflecting the relaxed alignment in both a horizontal and vertical plane.
A scheme like this one would also have a design prepared at a lesser standard (following the existing or a more "ground hugging" alignment) and the construction costs established for this as well as the environmental effects.
For all alignments the benefits will also have been established such as journey time saving, monetised safety benefits over the existing road etc.
It would then be a Client decision to see which alignment and design speed (there may be several more prepared) is the best value for money and any associated speed limits or "short slip roads" will be determined at ths stage long before detailed design commences. It is extremely unlikely to have been a late "value engineering" proposal during construction.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by jackal »

Yes, here you can see multiple reports from 2013 and 2014 giving the design speed as 50mph/85kph, and even that's with some departures.

I'm not really sure why there is a need for a consultation or BBC article about this, as opposed to all the actually boneheaded things the Welsh government is up to...
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by rhyds »

jackal wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:32 Yes, here you can see multiple reports from 2013 and 2014 giving the design speed as 50mph/85kph, and even that's with some departures.

I'm not really sure why there is a need for a consultation or BBC article about this, as opposed to all the actually boneheaded things the Welsh government is up to...
Its July, heading towards the silly season and BBC Wales needs something to fill the gaps in its radio and online news
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Beardy5632 »

Why doesn’t it surprise me that people are complaining about the 50 limit.

They’re probably the same ones who complained about the one when they removed the tolls on the new Severn Bridge even though it was practically the same 50 limit that had been there for 22 years :lol:
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by JammyDodge »

Beardy5632 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:45 Why doesn’t it surprise me that people are complaining about the 50 limit.

They’re probably the same ones who complained about the one when they removed the tolls on the new Severn Bridge even though it was practically the same 50 limit that had been there for 22 years :lol:
Also people complaining that it is late and overbudget.
It was the exact same when it was first built, late and overbudget
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by ForestChav »

roadtester wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:46 TBH, I'm much more worried about the possibility that they'll decide not to do all of the HotV than I am about whether there might be a bit of 50.

I know it's supposed to be protected under the most recent scaling back of road spending in Wales, but it's an expensive and difficult project - the temptation not to see it all the way through must be there, I'd have thought.
Yes, and with some of the sections being dual and some not it would put more pressure on the sections which are not.

It really should be a decent expressway-style alternative to the M4 for accessing places West of Cardiff, we've gone that way to SW Wales the last few times (in defiance of the sat nav) and even if some of it is designed for 50mph it should still take significant pressure off the M4 if all traffic from the Midlands was sent down the M50/A40 and across the A465. If it's not all dualled, that is just going to make it bottlenecked and they have probably the harder sections left to do. The easy bit by the M4 was all done ages back by the looks of it.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Bryn666 »

Dowlais-Hirwaun has already started, so there will be no "unfinished" HoTV. It'll be dual carriageway from Neath to Abergavenny as planned.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by fras »

Norway once had the lowest speed restriction in Europe, but have gradually raised those on the better roads.
Their 110 kph on motorways is essentially our 70 mph, (112 kph).
Is there a drawing, or map of this new section of road.

Near me the new SC Congleton Link Road is mostly NSL but there is a 50 mph section where there is quite a tight curve. Driving along here in dry weather is perfectly OK at 60 mph, but I think a few would spin off at that speed in the wet in winter ! Far too many people only replace their tyres when a car fails its MOT on them, and that's cars that need an MOT. A car in its 3rd year could well have totally bald tyres !
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Bryn666 »

The Welsh Conservatives feared the 50mph speed limit - rather than the 70mph limit normally adopted on dual carriageways - could increase congestion.
When we have intelligent politicians, maybe we will have intelligent transport policy. I won't hold my breath.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Alderpoint »

AAndy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 05:45 It was NSL, and NSL all the way from Abergavenny to Hirwaun, on all the 2+1, which was most of it right up to the time the construction began at Dowlais top.
50 repeater here in September 2011.
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Re: A465 Heads Of The Valleys Rd Dualling: Gilwern To Brynmawr

Post by Bryn666 »

fras wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:52 Norway once had the lowest speed restriction in Europe, but have gradually raised those on the better roads.
Their 110 kph on motorways is essentially our 70 mph, (112 kph).
Is there a drawing, or map of this new section of road.

Near me the new SC Congleton Link Road is mostly NSL but there is a 50 mph section where there is quite a tight curve. Driving along here in dry weather is perfectly OK at 60 mph, but I think a few would spin off at that speed in the wet in winter ! Far too many people only replace their tyres when a car fails its MOT on them, and that's cars that need an MOT. A car in its 3rd year could well have totally bald tyres !
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There is a sharp bend, a split level section where the retaining wall reduces forward visibility, tight junctions, and the whole thing is in a canyon that the French Alps would consider one of its own.

Given this context, people complaining about 3 miles of 50 limit are really missing the point. The fact the road has been built at all is nothing short of a miracle.
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