Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Berk »

In fact, if you go back to the OP-linked article (in Forbes), it sets the plan in context a little more. The link to Ghent (and Dutch cities such as Groningen before it), is that travelling direct from one suburb to another is no longer possible, as part of the plan. For cars, at least.

That is where the Middleway comes in, as a ring road. Access arrangements for cars in the CBD would be changed, more one-way streets would (presumably, per the Ghent example) be introduced.

So you can continue to drive in, just that routings will be different, no longer direct. However, for cyclists and peds, it’s no change.

The devil really will be in the detail. I personally would hope that Brum leans more towards the Dutch model, rather than unequivocally banning cars (which is what our media has concentrated on).

Before you say it can’t be done, it already has - in cities like Leicester. Maybe it is challenging enough to put off the odd outsider, so they may feel more tempted to use public transport, but parking is still available at reasonable-ish rates.
User avatar
A42_Sparks
Member
Posts: 958
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 23:20
Location: Ballymena, N Ireland

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by A42_Sparks »

This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
User avatar
chaseracer
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 15:46
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by chaseracer »

I should think Glasgow City Council is watching with interest...
User avatar
M4 Cardiff
Member
Posts: 2401
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 15:12
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by M4 Cardiff »

Since De-car-ing cities is something we are going to be seeing more of and will have to get used to, had much thought been given to people who are 'marginal' on the mobility scale and how is this dealt with on other countries that have already tried car restrictions further whan we have?

It would probably be fairly easy to work in exceptions to most car-deterrance restrictions for blue badge holders (and maybe even required under disability-discrimination legislation), and of course, the able-bodied should generally be able to work with walking a bit further and/or using public transport. But what about the 'marginal' ones for whom don't quite qualify for a blue badge, but would not be able to go about their normal business without taking their car closer to their destination than would be allowed under possible future restrictions? (OK in the Birmingham example, they should be able to go back to the ring road, round then back in if they need to go to more than one destination, but who knows what is in the pipeline for other places?)
Driving thrombosis caused this accident......a clot behind the wheel.
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9707
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by WHBM »

M4 Cardiff wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:55 It would probably be fairly easy to work in exceptions to most car-deterrance restrictions for blue badge holders )
Casual experience tells me that not only are a proportion of blue badge holders decidedly marginal, but also a good proportion of those who genuinely need such close-in provision don't have them, being given lifts by friends etc. It's a bureaucrat's approach to an issue.
User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 12031
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

A42_Sparks wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:51 This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
Their actual proposal is "A ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2041" - that's one year AFTER the proposed UK ban on the sale of petrol/diesel non-electrified cars.
Lifelong motorhead
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8738
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by trickstat »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 07:37
A42_Sparks wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:51 This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
Their actual proposal is "A ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2041" - that's one year AFTER the proposed UK ban on the sale of petrol/diesel non-electrified cars.
The next point is a ban on all fossil-fuel powered vehicles on West Midlands roads by 2041.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Bryn666 »

Hardly an unreasonable goal.

Car manufacturers can't keep business as usual; people are rightly fed up of air pollution and they're also fed up of climate change.

Likewise there are massive safety benefits to not having cars in areas intended as social and recreational areas like most town centres will need to be to survive.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Chris Bertram »

Berk wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:19I can’t really see why anyone would want to drive through the middle of Brum just because the A38(M) and A38 are there. It may have been possible for a very long time, but is it that direct?? Unless your friends or family live there??
Answer to the underlined bit - very much so. A comparable journey under free-flowing conditions (i.e. any time outside peak hours) either way round the ring road will take a *lot* longer as you get stopped at traffic lights or wait at roundabouts, in addition to it being a longer distance. There are now some pedestrian crossing lights on Bristol Street, but apart from that, the throughpass is free-flow from one end to the other, with no junctions that involve crossing at-grade.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31476
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by roadtester »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 08:55 Hardly an unreasonable goal.

Car manufacturers can't keep business as usual; people are rightly fed up of air pollution and they're also fed up of climate change.

Likewise there are massive safety benefits to not having cars in areas intended as social and recreational areas like most town centres will need to be to survive.
TBH, though, I think Birmingham would be well advised to stick to arguments like improving health/local air quality, road safety and quality of life, rather than less immediate or direct stuff like climate change when selling this project.

Climate change is important and a grave threat to us all but I think it's harder to relate it to highly specific changes to a particular city's one way system or whatever - it requires much more widespread action on an international basis. Of course the smaller local things add up as well, but I think it's a harder sell.

Also, climate change has its (IMHO misinformed) sceptics who will always push back - but almost everyone can agree that not getting run over or not having to breathe in a load of sooty diesel fumes are good things.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Bryn666 »

roadtester wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 09:23 ...but almost everyone can agree that not getting run over or not having to breathe in a load of sooty diesel fumes are good things.
Except on SABRE, it seems.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Jeni
Banned
Posts: 7313
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 22:28

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Jeni »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 09:51
roadtester wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 09:23 ...but almost everyone can agree that not getting run over or not having to breathe in a load of sooty diesel fumes are good things.
Except on SABRE, it seems.
Where's that like button?
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by someone »

A42_Sparks wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:51 This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
It is roughly twenty-one years since leaded petrol was banned in the U.K., over a decade after Japan did.

We already have electric vehicles, the idea that in twenty-one years time they will be affordable and usable (range, charging etc.) to make fossil fuel vehicles use unjustifiable seems pretty unambitious.
User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 12031
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

someone wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:03
A42_Sparks wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:51 This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
It is roughly twenty-one years since leaded petrol was banned in the U.K., over a decade after Japan did.

We already have electric vehicles, the idea that in twenty-one years time they will be affordable and usable (range, charging etc.) to make fossil fuel vehicles use unjustifiable seems pretty unambitious.
Apples and pears - existing cars could be converted to run on unleaded fuel relatively simply - petrol/diesel cars have been converted to electric but it's far from straightforward
Lifelong motorhead
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Bryn666 »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:39
someone wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:03
A42_Sparks wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:51 This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
It is roughly twenty-one years since leaded petrol was banned in the U.K., over a decade after Japan did.

We already have electric vehicles, the idea that in twenty-one years time they will be affordable and usable (range, charging etc.) to make fossil fuel vehicles use unjustifiable seems pretty unambitious.
Apples and pears - existing cars could be converted to run on unleaded fuel relatively simply - petrol/diesel cars have been converted to electric but it's far from straightforward
The components to create wholly electric cars also come with a raft of environmental issues.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Glom
Member
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:05
Location: Wiltshire

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Glom »

Bryn666 wrote:
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:39
someone wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:03 It is roughly twenty-one years since leaded petrol was banned in the U.K., over a decade after Japan did.

We already have electric vehicles, the idea that in twenty-one years time they will be affordable and usable (range, charging etc.) to make fossil fuel vehicles use unjustifiable seems pretty unambitious.
Apples and pears - existing cars could be converted to run on unleaded fuel relatively simply - petrol/diesel cars have been converted to electric but it's far from straightforward
The components to create wholly electric cars also come with a raft of environmental issues.
It requires lithium for the lithium mines of Rura Penthe, known throughout the galaxy as the Aliens' Graveyard.
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by someone »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:39
someone wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:03
A42_Sparks wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 23:51 This article claims that the plan goes further - by 2041 all petrol & diesel vehicles will be banned from using any road in the West Midlands:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... s-17544366
It is roughly twenty-one years since leaded petrol was banned in the U.K., over a decade after Japan did.

We already have electric vehicles, the idea that in twenty-one years time they will be affordable and usable (range, charging etc.) to make fossil fuel vehicles use unjustifiable seems pretty unambitious.
Apples and pears - existing cars could be converted to run on unleaded fuel relatively simply - petrol/diesel cars have been converted to electric but it's far from straightforward
I agree, just like apples and oranges are both fruits, those two situations are also alike.

A quick check, and when leaded petrol was banned there were still around five million cars on the road that needed it, of which around 40% could not be converted.

The key word there is "still," because as I pointed out we are already at the time where electric vehicles are increasing. And we banned leaded petrol a long time after other countries, it was a new technology that had only just become available.

I am not saying that come twenty-one years time we will be in a position to transition from fossil fuels to electrically powered vehicles. I am saying that by that time the technology will have been well established.

The average age of a car on British roads as announced annually is usually up to eight years old, and there is normally a big fall off after fourteen years. So even in a worst case scenario, that would mean there will be few cars from earlier than 2027 on the road in 2041.

And over the next twenty-one years we will continue to see a change to public attitude, increased taxes, pollution charges, scrapage schemes, and other measures to encourage people to switch to zero emission vehicles. There will certainly be a greater number of people replacing vehicles over the next two decades than the past two.

So two harmful technologies that will be banned long after people already have viable alternatives. Much like apples and oranges are made to make juices. Very similar things.
Jeni
Banned
Posts: 7313
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 22:28

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by Jeni »

The best option is to attempt to rely on cars less, regardless of their propulsion method
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9707
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by WHBM »

The "nothing across Birmingham centre" approach is, strangely, not the first time for them. The city tramway system, I think uniquely for Britain, had the usual series of radial routes into the centre, but they would terminate there, and slightly on the periphery, so not quite touching. You can get the idea from this map of their tramways at maximum extent in the 1930s

http://tundria.com/trams/GBR/Birmingham-1930.php

When replaced by buses, they followed a similar "not touching" structure. There doesn't seem to be a reason why Birmingham transport developed in this different manner to other cities.

Regarding comparisons to Ghent, that is really inappropriate, as not only is it a far smaller city but it has not one but two circumferential main roads, the R4 and the R40, the inner R40 one sufficiently close in that you can probably walk to it/see it from much of the centre. It is only within this that a series of no through road cul-de-sacs have been formed, principally by making some canal bridges pedestrian only. Notably, these roads penetrating inside the inner ring seem to lead principally to an array of pleasantly integrated underground car parks. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0530087 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0537361 ... 312!8i6656
User avatar
ChrisH
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3975
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:29

Re: Birmingham unveils Ghent-style plan to reduce traffic levels

Post by ChrisH »

WHBM wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:49 Regarding comparisons to Ghent, that is really inappropriate, as not only is it a far smaller city but it has not one but two circumferential main roads, the R4 and the R40, the inner R40 one sufficiently close in that you can probably walk to it/see it from much of the centre. It is only within this that a series of no through road cul-de-sacs have been formed, principally by making some canal bridges pedestrian only. Notably, these roads penetrating inside the inner ring seem to lead principally to an array of pleasantly integrated underground car parks. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0530087 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0537361 ... 312!8i6656
Absolutely. Ghent is a comparatively very small city and the car parks are all easily reachable from the motorways. Indeed I parked in one a couple of years ago for a weekend stay, affordably and easily.

Birmingham has in the A38 the kind of underground infrastructure which enables street-level transformative schemes to take place. There is indeed no reason why trips across Birmingham need to traverse city streets when there is the Middleway and the A38. That's not to say there couldn't be improvements in the placement and management of accesses to the A38. Cities with underground infrastructure like this can crack on with reallocating roadspace on the surface to active modes and public transport, and deliveries and servicing, safe in the knowledge that there are reasonable alternatives. This is one of the reasons why London, even a few years ago, looked into spending £billions on cross-city tunnels.
Post Reply